Devi Ever seems to be in a bad place...

octatonic

For those who are new to this saga- please don't think I'm not sensitive to the mental health issues.
But also it is worth digging a little deeper to see how she operates.

digitalscream

Gagaryn said:

And seeing one's self as a victim and that the whole world is against you is not uncommon in those with some mental health problems. As can be lack of obvious remorse. And blaming others for their predicament - however clear it may be to outsiders that the problems are entirely self  made.

I guess my problem with what you're saying here is that yes...those things aren't uncommon in those with some (specific) mental health problems. However, that's a logical fallacy ("Some people in group A do X, therefore if somebody does X they must be in group A"); they're far more common - in absolute terms - in folk who don't have mental health problems. On balance of probability, it's reasonably likely that she's in the latter group rather than the former.

In her case, you can probably trace it back to a perception of her own victim status - blaming everybody else, feeling like the whole world's against you, lack of remorse because everybody's the enemy anyway and the like. That's likely something that came out of being trans - and all the shit that comes with it (eg being bullied at school because of it etc). 

However, that wouldn't be a mental illness; those things would all be part of the life experience that make up who she is (just like it is for all of us). That would make it a personality problem, though, and something which is entirely within her power to fix if she wanted to. It's also more likely, purely on the basis that there are more assholes in the world than there are people with mental illness.

I'd suggest that there's absolutely no reason for her to fix it, though, because - apart from the stress every year or two of dealing with very, very unhappy people - it's worked out pretty well for her so far. She's mostly funded her life and lifestyle without having to do a lot of work or acquire any particularly in-depth skillsets.

octatonic

^ +1.
Also, does anyone think this is actually the end?
I am fully expecting that after a period of months or years that she will be back with another concocted back story which justifies having another go and the same sorry thing will repeat.

octatonic

Also some evidence of the aggressive shitposting she has done over the years.

Gagaryn

digitalscream said:

Gagaryn said:

And seeing one's self as a victim and that the whole world is against you is not uncommon in those with some mental health problems. As can be lack of obvious remorse. And blaming others for their predicament - however clear it may be to outsiders that the problems are entirely self  made.

I guess my problem with what you're saying here is that yes...those things aren't uncommon in those with some (specific) mental health problems. However, that's a logical fallacy ("Some people in group A do X, therefore if somebody does X they must be in group A"); they're far more common - in absolute terms - in folk who don't have mental health problems. On balance of probability, it's reasonably likely that she's in the latter group rather than the former.

In her case, you can probably trace it back to a perception of her own victim status - blaming everybody else, feeling like the whole world's against you, lack of remorse because everybody's the enemy anyway and the like. That's likely something that came out of being trans - and all the shit that comes with it (eg being bullied at school because of it etc). 

However, that wouldn't be a mental illness; those things would all be part of the life experience that make up who she is (just like it is for all of us). That would make it a personality problem, though, and something which is entirely within her power to fix if she wanted to. It's also more likely, purely on the basis that there are more assholes in the world than there are people with mental illness.

I'd suggest that there's absolutely no reason for her to fix it, though, because - apart from the stress every year or two of dealing with very, very unhappy people - it's worked out pretty well for her so far. She's mostly funded her life and lifestyle without having to do a lot of work or acquire any particularly in-depth skillsets.

The conclusion you draw from the logical fallacy argument is questionable but that's for another day! :-)  

It's important to remember that diagnosis of mental illness is made on observation of behavious and symptoms alone - there are no definitive medical test that clearly show that an individula has x condition. Labels are applied to groups of behaviours and symptoms to help differentiate them. People don't always fit neatly into labels though.  I know you know all this!

However you seem be saying that having a personality problem, or a personality disorder, as it is usually known is not a mental disorder and is easily resolved if the individual were to pull up their socks, get on their bike and pull themselves together. This is outdated thinking. At least in the UK, and I presume equally in the US, mental health services view personality disorders as treatable conditions in similar ways to other mental health dignosis.

FelineGuitars

When I read 

Devi Ever seems to be in a bad place...

I assumed she'd simply moved to Croydon

fields5069

The problem with anyone claiming to have mental health problems, is that unless you know them well, and/or they have been diagnosed (extremely unlikely unless their problems are obvious or they have attempted suicide), you have 2 options - either take them on their word or call BS. In my opinion anyway.

My wife had a friend who was, as I thought at the time, "lazing around with depression". She was well enough for socialising, riding her free bike, going on day trips etc., but not well enough to work. Mmmmkay, I thought. But now I have a daughter with problems which will probably never be diagnosed, and it makes me think twice as to how I have thought about people in the past.

But surely you then don't go and start a business, knowing full well you'll be put under huge levels of stress etc. I don't know, it's a tough one.

digitalscream

Gagaryn said:

However you seem be saying that having a personality problem, or a personality disorder, as it is usually known is not a mental disorder and is easily resolved if the individual were to pull up their socks, get on their bike and pull themselves together. This is outdated thinking. At least in the UK, and I presume equally in the US, mental health services view personality disorders as treatable conditions in similar ways to other mental health dignosis.

I didn't say "personality disorder". I said a personality problem - as in, a problematic personality. Two very different things. Or, more colloquially, an asshole. That's the conclusion I've drawn from everything I've seen of her posts and public drama.

Unless you think that everybody who's a bit of a twat actually has a mental health problem?

octatonic

digitalscream said:

Unless you think that everybody who's a bit of a twat actually has a mental health problem?

Hmmmm.....

fields5069

digitalscream said:

Gagaryn said:

However you seem be saying that having a personality problem, or a personality disorder, as it is usually known is not a mental disorder and is easily resolved if the individual were to pull up their socks, get on their bike and pull themselves together. This is outdated thinking. At least in the UK, and I presume equally in the US, mental health services view personality disorders as treatable conditions in similar ways to other mental health dignosis.

I didn't say "personality disorder". I said a personality problem - as in, a problematic personality. Two very different things. Or, more colloquially, an asshole. That's the conclusion I've drawn from everything I've seen of her posts and public drama.

Unless you think that everybody who's a bit of a twat actually has a mental health problem?

Where do you draw the line? My daughter is a bit of a twat sometimes, and has what we believe to be a form of autism. It's a grey area and still, in the 21st century, there is a chasm between mental health and physical health treatment.

People regularly fight for 5-10 years to get some problems recognised. We've been going for 7 years with our daughter with no end in sight.

That said, you can't necessarily make allowances for someone who does have problems, if they choose to provide a service, product, or whatever. There is much work to be done in this area, that's for sure.

octatonic

fields5069 said:

digitalscream said:

Gagaryn said:

However you seem be saying that having a personality problem, or a personality disorder, as it is usually known is not a mental disorder and is easily resolved if the individual were to pull up their socks, get on their bike and pull themselves together. This is outdated thinking. At least in the UK, and I presume equally in the US, mental health services view personality disorders as treatable conditions in similar ways to other mental health dignosis.

I didn't say "personality disorder". I said a personality problem - as in, a problematic personality. Two very different things. Or, more colloquially, an asshole. That's the conclusion I've drawn from everything I've seen of her posts and public drama.

Unless you think that everybody who's a bit of a twat actually has a mental health problem?

Where do you draw the line? My daughter is a bit of a twat sometimes, and has what we believe to be a form of autism. It's a grey area and still, in the 21st century, there is a chasm between mental health and physical health treatment.

People regularly fight for 5-10 years to get some problems recognised. We've been going for 7 years with our daughter with no end in sight.

That said, you can't necessarily make allowances for someone who does have problems, if they choose to provide a service, product, or whatever. There is much work to be done in this area, that's for sure.

How many times has your daughter left dozens of people high and dry promising to make effects pedals that never turned up whilst shit posting on troll sites to try to befriend to trolls whilst dishing dirt on others?

digitalscream

fields5069 said:

digitalscream said:

Gagaryn said:

However you seem be saying that having a personality problem, or a personality disorder, as it is usually known is not a mental disorder and is easily resolved if the individual were to pull up their socks, get on their bike and pull themselves together. This is outdated thinking. At least in the UK, and I presume equally in the US, mental health services view personality disorders as treatable conditions in similar ways to other mental health dignosis.

I didn't say "personality disorder". I said a personality problem - as in, a problematic personality. Two very different things. Or, more colloquially, an asshole. That's the conclusion I've drawn from everything I've seen of her posts and public drama.

Unless you think that everybody who's a bit of a twat actually has a mental health problem?

Where do you draw the line? My daughter is a bit of a twat sometimes, and has what we believe to be a form of autism. It's a grey area and still, in the 21st century, there is a chasm between mental health and physical health treatment.

People regularly fight for 5-10 years to get some problems recognised. We've been going for 7 years with our daughter with no end in sight.

That said, you can't necessarily make allowances for someone who does have problems, if they choose to provide a service, product, or whatever. There is much work to be done in this area, that's for sure.

Well, yes - however, you can only draw the line at an actual diagnosis.

Making the assumption of mental health problems and then making allowances for that is actually bad whether it's genuine or not, IMO. If it's not genuine, then an asshole is getting away with treating everyone else like shit. If it is genuine, then it's reinforcing the problem and likely making things worse.

Of course, there's a massive chasm between "making allowances" and "helping manage". The latter usually involves helping the person in question deal with life while minimising any negative impact on the people around them and the outside world (which is what most folk do when a loved one is suffering undiagnosed), whereas the former lets the impact continue unabated while telling everyone that it's unreasonable to be annoyed by it.

EDIT: An excellent example is my mother-in-law. She has significant health problems, compounded by her own sense of victimhood. Over the last 19 years (as long as I've known her), she's variously claimed to suffer from bipolar disorder, clinical depression, schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder and several others I can't even remember. My wife has always accepted these claims at face value and let her get away with her awful behaviour, which just meant that it gradually escalated to the point of making our lives miserable and nearly destroying our family. Recently, it transpired that every psychiatrist she's ever seen has outright rejected all of these as possibilities; turns out she's just a spiteful, manipulative witch who enjoys the misery of those around her for her own entertainment. It's possible that this might have influenced my thought process in this thread, but then...I maintained that she was just a toxic individual long before we found this out or this thread came into existence

Gassage

I drafted many responses to this, all of which made some waffling point about snowflake ism and sexuality.

However, paraphrased simply, the fact she takes it up the arse doesn’t give her the right to talk out of her arse.

Gagaryn

digitalscream said:

Gagaryn said:

However you seem be saying that having a personality problem, or a personality disorder, as it is usually known is not a mental disorder and is easily resolved if the individual were to pull up their socks, get on their bike and pull themselves together. This is outdated thinking. At least in the UK, and I presume equally in the US, mental health services view personality disorders as treatable conditions in similar ways to other mental health dignosis.

I didn't say "personality disorder". I said a personality problem - as in, a problematic personality. Two very different things. Or, more colloquially, an asshole. That's the conclusion I've drawn from everything I've seen of her posts and public drama.

Unless you think that everybody who's a bit of a twat actually has a mental health problem?

I know what you said. You said she has a problematic personalty that is problematic enough to casue themselves and others harm but not problematic enough to merit sympathy or help.

People who repeatedly do things that hurt both them and those around them often do have mental health problems. Sometimes diagnosed, sometimes not. Prisons are full of people who have a mental health diagnosis that didn't have a mental health diagnosis before they went in. Lots of homelss people etc. etc.

Of course it's easier to dismiss people as assholes.

fields5069

digitalscream said:

fields5069 said:

digitalscream said:

Gagaryn said:

However you seem be saying that having a personality problem, or a personality disorder, as it is usually known is not a mental disorder and is easily resolved if the individual were to pull up their socks, get on their bike and pull themselves together. This is outdated thinking. At least in the UK, and I presume equally in the US, mental health services view personality disorders as treatable conditions in similar ways to other mental health dignosis.

I didn't say "personality disorder". I said a personality problem - as in, a problematic personality. Two very different things. Or, more colloquially, an asshole. That's the conclusion I've drawn from everything I've seen of her posts and public drama.

Unless you think that everybody who's a bit of a twat actually has a mental health problem?

Where do you draw the line? My daughter is a bit of a twat sometimes, and has what we believe to be a form of autism. It's a grey area and still, in the 21st century, there is a chasm between mental health and physical health treatment.

People regularly fight for 5-10 years to get some problems recognised. We've been going for 7 years with our daughter with no end in sight.

That said, you can't necessarily make allowances for someone who does have problems, if they choose to provide a service, product, or whatever. There is much work to be done in this area, that's for sure.

Well, yes - however, you can only draw the line at an actual diagnosis.

Making the assumption of mental health problems and then making allowances for that is actually bad whether it's genuine or not, IMO. If it's not genuine, then an asshole is getting away with treating everyone else like shit. If it is genuine, then it's reinforcing the problem and likely making things worse.

Of course, there's a massive chasm between "making allowances" and "helping manage". The latter usually involves helping the person in question deal with life while minimising any negative impact on the people around them and the outside world (which is what most folk do when a loved one is suffering undiagnosed), whereas the former lets the impact continue unabated while telling everyone that it's unreasonable to be annoyed by it.

That's kind of what I was aiming at, thanks . And whereas it's fairly easy to diagnose a viral problem and a couple of days off work, it's extremely difficult to diagnose any number of well-masked mental disorders for which no allowances are made unless diagnosed. We really are a long way behind in mental health care.

And an edit in response to your edit: often, the people who are happy to inform you of their mental illness aren't really ill. It's the last thing my daughter wants to do, she regularly hates herself for the way she feels.

fields5069

octatonic said:

fields5069 said:

digitalscream said:

Gagaryn said:

However you seem be saying that having a personality problem, or a personality disorder, as it is usually known is not a mental disorder and is easily resolved if the individual were to pull up their socks, get on their bike and pull themselves together. This is outdated thinking. At least in the UK, and I presume equally in the US, mental health services view personality disorders as treatable conditions in similar ways to other mental health dignosis.

I didn't say "personality disorder". I said a personality problem - as in, a problematic personality. Two very different things. Or, more colloquially, an asshole. That's the conclusion I've drawn from everything I've seen of her posts and public drama.

Unless you think that everybody who's a bit of a twat actually has a mental health problem?

Where do you draw the line? My daughter is a bit of a twat sometimes, and has what we believe to be a form of autism. It's a grey area and still, in the 21st century, there is a chasm between mental health and physical health treatment.

People regularly fight for 5-10 years to get some problems recognised. We've been going for 7 years with our daughter with no end in sight.

That said, you can't necessarily make allowances for someone who does have problems, if they choose to provide a service, product, or whatever. There is much work to be done in this area, that's for sure.

How many times has your daughter left dozens of people high and dry promising to make effects pedals that never turned up whilst shit posting on troll sites to try to befriend to trolls whilst dishing dirt on others?

None yet, she's 13 years old. She's left her friends in the lurch plenty of times though.

octatonic

digitalscream

Gagaryn said:

digitalscream said:

Gagaryn said:

However you seem be saying that having a personality problem, or a personality disorder, as it is usually known is not a mental disorder and is easily resolved if the individual were to pull up their socks, get on their bike and pull themselves together. This is outdated thinking. At least in the UK, and I presume equally in the US, mental health services view personality disorders as treatable conditions in similar ways to other mental health dignosis.

I didn't say "personality disorder". I said a personality problem - as in, a problematic personality. Two very different things. Or, more colloquially, an asshole. That's the conclusion I've drawn from everything I've seen of her posts and public drama.

Unless you think that everybody who's a bit of a twat actually has a mental health problem?

I know what you said. You said she has a problematic personalty that is problematic enough to casue themselves and others harm but not problematic enough to merit sympathy or help.

People who repeatedly do things that hurt both them and those around them often do have mental health problems. Sometimes diagnosed, sometimes not. Prisons are full of people who have a mental health diagnosis that didn't have a mental health diagnosis before they went in. Lots of homelss people etc. etc.

Of course it's easier to dismiss people as assholes.

Given that the vast majority of people don't suffer from mental illnesses, which do you think is more likely?

Funkfingers

mart said:

Funkfingers said:

Does the company change its name every time?

No.

Well, that disproves the H. L. Mencken theory.
 
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nobody_ever_went_broke_underestimating_the_intelligence_of_the_American_people

Teetonetal

To be honest, from the moment I saw inside a Devi Ever pedal, the brand fell right off any want list and was placed firmly on avoid at all cost. All I need to know.