Anderton's Vertex video

Anacharsis

meltedbuzzbox said:

Anacharsis said:

digitalscream said:

Anacharsis said:

digitalscream said:

Anacharsis said:

<more blah>

Look, we get it, you've got a bit of an obsession with this. 46 posts on this forum, 25 of which are in this thread bemoaning the death of Lee's integrity (and most of them say exactly the same thing).

Here's the thing - you're based in the US. You're never likely to be an Andertons customer. It should, therefore, come as little surprise that your little crusade will mean absolutely nothing to him. So why carry on banging on about it, when you haven't had anything new to say about it since page two or three? It's not like any argument can change your mind, such is the depth of your fervour on the subject!

Wow. Umm, ok. I had no ill intent, nor any desire to get personal. I'm genuinely sorry that you felt the need to ("little crusade").

That really isn't getting "personal". Sure, it's making fun of your apparent persistence in saying the same thing over and over again, but it's not being "personal".

Anacharsis said:

Your contention seems to be, in effect, that I am right about Lee - that he's ignoring principle.

LOL! Honestly, that has to be the most idiotic statement I've seen on here in some time (but...nice try). And, given the guff I have no choice but to wade through on a daily basis, that's quite an achievement

So do you really want me to exit this thread, or do you want to throw jabs? 

I don't think that will end well as Digi owns this place

I wasn't suggesting I'd "win." I'm saying if he wants this over, I'm game, but continuing to argue is, well, continuing the argument. Just not sure what he wants.

Anacharsis

I really didn't mean to escalate. My last comment was to indicate that I was fine walking away, only to be accused of an "idiotic statement."

I'm sorry if I conveyed a different intention, and I am fine with leaving this topic where it lies.

hubobulous

To be fair that’s how I read your post as well. I get that you are aggrieved and for what it’s worth I share your frustrations. You’ve repeated your point many times and there’s not much more to say. But from my perspective you’ve not come close to breaking forum rules so I think it’s all good

digitalscream

Wazmeister said:

I don't think that will end well as Digi owns this place

Yep, we can see where this is heading 

I really hope not. For once, I'd like to be able to have an argument with somebody on here where they don't flounce

hubobulous said:

To be fair that’s how I read your post as well. I get that you are aggrieved and for what it’s worth I share your frustrations. You’ve repeated your point many times and there’s not much more to say. But from my perspective you’ve not come close to breaking forum rules so I think it’s all good

Exactly - I'm in this thread as a normal member, not an admin, and everyone here should know the rules we have - we don't moderate threads we're involved in unless there's a major breach of the rules. The only time I've ever done that is when there was blatantly illegal content posted.

Anacharsis said:

I really didn't mean to escalate. My last comment was to indicate that I was fine walking away, only to be accused of an "idiotic statement."

I'm sorry if I conveyed a different intention, and I am fine with leaving this topic where it lies.

OK, here's my frustration - there's a lot more to this story than anybody in this thread knows. I know, because I know and have chatted to a number of the players involved. My problem is that it was all told in confidence, and I can't break that because I don't want to make anybody's situation worse (and it's not my story to tell).

For instance, I know with absolute certainty that your characterisation of Lee Anderton is wrong (as is many other people's). I also know that the folk people seem to think are the good guys actually aren't as clean as seems to be believed, and vice versa (with one exception, because Mason's quite clearly been a total dick for some time).

While I don't expect you to believe me, try to put yourself in my position for a moment (hypothetically-speaking) and consider how it might feel to see somebody attacking someone's character when you know they don't deserve it.

RMJ

digitalscream said:

Wazmeister said:

I don't think that will end well as Digi owns this place

Yep, we can see where this is heading 

I really hope not. For once, I'd like to be able to have an argument with somebody on here where they don't flounce

hubobulous said:

To be fair that’s how I read your post as well. I get that you are aggrieved and for what it’s worth I share your frustrations. You’ve repeated your point many times and there’s not much more to say. But from my perspective you’ve not come close to breaking forum rules so I think it’s all good

Exactly - I'm in this thread as a normal member, not an admin, and everyone here should know the rules we have - we don't moderate threads we're involved in unless there's a major breach of the rules. The only time I've ever done that is when there was blatantly illegal content posted.

Anacharsis said:

I really didn't mean to escalate. My last comment was to indicate that I was fine walking away, only to be accused of an "idiotic statement."

I'm sorry if I conveyed a different intention, and I am fine with leaving this topic where it lies.

OK, here's my frustration - there's a lot more to this story than anybody in this thread knows. I know, because I know and have chatted to a number of the players involved. My problem is that it was all told in confidence, and I can't break that because I don't want to make anybody's situation worse (and it's not my story to tell).

For instance, I know with absolute certainty that your characterisation of Lee Anderton is wrong (as is many other people's). I also know that the folk people seem to think are the good guys actually aren't as clean as seems to be believed, and vice versa (with one exception, because Mason's quite clearly been a total dick for some time).

While I don't expect you to believe me, try to put yourself in my position for a moment (hypothetically-speaking) and consider how it might feel to see somebody attacking someone's character when you know they don't deserve it.

Oooh you tease!!!

digitalscream

RMJ said:

Oooh you tease!!!

That's what I was trying to avoid, but it became pretty much impossible to get my position across without mentioning it!

Anacharsis

digitalscream said:

OK, here's my frustration - there's a 

lot more to this story than anybody in this thread knows. I know, because I know and have chatted to a number of the players involved. My problem is that it was all told in confidence, and I can't break that because I don't want to make anybody's situation worse (and it's not my story to tell).

For instance, I know with absolute certainty that your characterisation of Lee Anderton is wrong (as is many other people's). I also know that the folk people seem to think are the good guys actually aren't as clean as seems to be believed, and vice versa (with one exception, because Mason's quite clearly been a total dick for some time).

While I don't expect you to believe me, try to put yourself in my position for a moment (hypothetically-speaking) and consider how it might feel to see somebody attacking someone's character when you know they don't deserve it.

I can get that. Here's why I may seem strident:

Think of the number of times we are told to just trust whomever - particularly in the context of gear. It can be hard to even consider. I can name some names of people I absolutely know, again based on personal experience, are honest brokers in this field. But why, other than courtesy, should you believe me? With that in mind, all I really expect, in the context of this discussion, is that people accept the reality that such honest brokers exist. I'd further ask that we can agree that even along the spectrum of the ethically challenged (whether you regard cloning as unethical, or only cloning and lying about it, or only b.s. mojo talk, etc), a small few are genuinely comparable to Mason.

Getting back to your source of frustration - I believe you. I truly do. That doesn't mean I believe your conclusion. That probably sounds weird, so I'll explain. I believe you have information you cannot share. I believe you feel that the information establishes, without question, that Lee is not only ethical in general (which I'd be inclined to believe), but that he is being ethical in this case. What I can't simply believe is that I would agree with your conclusion, as I don't and cannot have that information. My genuine acceptance that the information exists, in other words, can't automatically make me say "well, if you say so." Particularly when I care about people who lose sales to Mason (those sales are finite) and are impugned by him directly - and by others who defend him by tarring all - while Lee promotes him and backs his pedals with a money back guarantee. Does that seem fair?

So what are we left to do? I'm willing to accept the possibility that the information which you cannot share would totally rewrite the script for me. I have a hard time imagining what that might be, but I'm open to it. What I'm asking you to understand is that I care a good bit about people in this business whom I know to be honest, hard working, and struggling to make a living. From my perspective, and with the information about Mason and this video that is available to me (including Lee's statement), can you at least understand why it is I come to my conclusion? Can you understand why I stop to rebut so many of the tired old apologist excuses, particularly those that 1) reflect little real knowledge of the facts of Mason's history and 2) group good people with him? (Note: I am not including you in either group)

Put another way, Lee chose to be on camera next to Mason, make a promo video with him, and sell his pedals. A whole bunch of good people who make honestly designed and built gear didn't. When told about Mason's history, Lee replied in a way that strongly implied that he neither knew the whole story, nor cared to find out. BTW, many of those same honest brokers would love to have had the promotional opportunity given to Mason. That's (a very simplified summary of) the information that I have available to me. From my perspective, I am drawing conclusions about Lee based on the face value results of his choices. Meanwhile, others impugn "them all" (meaning actual pedal makers, or sometimes gear makers in general) in a false pox on all their houses - often while defending Mason (and sometimes, in this case, Lee). Can you see the source of my frustration?

Thank you for the tone of your post. I hope I have responded in kind.

heavyrocker

digitalscream said:

Wazmeister said:

I don't think that will end well as Digi owns this place

Yep, we can see where this is heading 

I really hope not. For once, I'd like to be able to have an argument with somebody on here where they don't flounce

hubobulous said:

To be fair that’s how I read your post as well. I get that you are aggrieved and for what it’s worth I share your frustrations. You’ve repeated your point many times and there’s not much more to say. But from my perspective you’ve not come close to breaking forum rules so I think it’s all good

Exactly - I'm in this thread as a normal member, not an admin, and everyone here should know the rules we have - we don't moderate threads we're involved in unless there's a major breach of the rules. The only time I've ever done that is when there was blatantly illegal content posted.

Anacharsis said:

I really didn't mean to escalate. My last comment was to indicate that I was fine walking away, only to be accused of an "idiotic statement."

I'm sorry if I conveyed a different intention, and I am fine with leaving this topic where it lies.

OK, here's my frustration - there's a lot more to this story than anybody in this thread knows. I know, because I know and have chatted to a number of the players involved. My problem is that it was all told in confidence, and I can't break that because I don't want to make anybody's situation worse (and it's not my story to tell).

For instance, I know with absolute certainty that your characterisation of Lee Anderton is wrong (as is many other people's). I also know that the folk people seem to think are the good guys actually aren't as clean as seems to be believed, and vice versa (with one exception, because Mason's quite clearly been a total dick for some time).

While I don't expect you to believe me, try to put yourself in my position for a moment (hypothetically-speaking) and consider how it might feel to see somebody attacking someone's character when you know they don't deserve it.

Well that settles that then. You know best, argument over.

No-one knows the full story so they can only comment on what they see but you seem to have a problem with that. Which is odd given that this is a guitar forum.

dindude

And just when you thought it was safe to back in the YouTube water, the latest That Pedal Show is with Josh from JHS - my world is upside down and I don’t know who to trust anymore*














*just trying to lighten the mood, not ignite another debate.

Anacharsis

Oh, and one other thing:

I think that by far, the most likely scenario is that Lee isn't being evil or selfish, but that he's been fooled. I apologize for any rhetoric I may have used that implies the contrary. Mason is a con man, and smart people can indeed be conned. Often times, the smartest ones have the hardest time accepting that reality.

But...I do admit that I only know that which is publicly available.

digitalscream

heavyrocker said:

Well that settles that then. You know best, argument over.

No-one knows the full story so they can only comment on what they see but you seem to have a problem with that. Which is odd given that this is a guitar forum.

Now you're just being silly. I wasn't ending the argument, I was simply explaining my position. I'd hoped for a bit of understanding (not to change folks' minds, because everybody's so entrenched), but clearly not from all.

Simply put, though, if that's your position...then yes, I do know better than you (ie in relative terms) with regard to this specific situation. There are a few industry folk on this forum who also know as much as I do. Unlike me, they've stayed out of this thread.

Let's put it this way - the opinion of the majority in this thread is not shared by anybody who knows what's happened, because that opinion is based on supposition and assumptions rather than knowledge of both events and the people involved.

digitalscream

dindude said:

And just when you thought it was safe to back in the YouTube water, the latest That Pedal Show is with Josh from JHS - my world is upside down and I don’t know who to trust anymore*

Yeah, I saw that pop up on my YouTube feed. Had to chuckle at the timing

JezWynd

digitalscream said:

Let's put it this way - the opinion of the majority in this thread is not shared by anybody who knows what's happened, because that opinion is based on supposition and assumptions rather than knowledge of both events and the people involved.

Time to put that shovel down?

Lebarque

dindude said:

And just when you thought it was safe to back in the YouTube water, the latest That Pedal Show is with Josh from JHS - my world is upside down and I don’t know who to trust anymore*














*just trying to lighten the mood, not ignite another debate.

Apparently Terry Morgan's on next week (the Harrisons couldn't make it).

BBBlues

This is where a credible thread gets turned into a laughing stock, and exactly why people like Lee ignore forums. Shame.

UnclePsychosis

BBBlues said:

This is where a credible thread gets turned into a laughing stock, and exactly why people like Lee claim to ignore forums. Shame.

FTFY  

hubobulous

BBBlues said:

This is where a credible thread gets turned into a laughing stock, and exactly why people like Lee ignore forums. Shame.

Which bit turned it from credible to laughable?

meltedbuzzbox

UnclePsychosis said:

BBBlues said:

This is where a credible thread gets turned into a laughing stock, and exactly why people like Lee claim to ignore forums. Shame.

FTFY  

So true. I know he looks at forums

StuartMac290

He's lying about things in the video itself. That's not giving someone a "second" chance, that's trying to turn a blind eye to the whole shit show.

hubobulous

meltedbuzzbox said:

UnclePsychosis said:

BBBlues said:

This is where a credible thread gets turned into a laughing stock, and exactly why people like Lee claim to ignore forums. Shame.

FTFY  

So true. I know he looks at forums

Not the ones with threads about Vertex ;-)