...but baby it's cold outside !

Emp_Fab

digitalscream said:

You're taking a song, removing the societal context from it, then deliberately (and knowingly) removing the original intent of the writer and substituting your own. What could that be construed as other than (at a minimum) "taking that out of context"?

Hang on a cotton-picking minute....  I'm not 'deliberately and knowingly removing.. blah blah'...   I'M NOT THE RADIO STATION THAT HAS BANNED IT !!!  I asked at the beginning how people felt about it.  I don't agree with the banning of the song, but I'm not so pig-headed and blinkered as to be unable to see why they felt it was not suitable to play !!!  But hey... don't let the fucking truth get in the way of a good ol' angry mob eh ?

tone1

I think the Tams are consulting their lawyers, due to them releasing ‘Hey Girl don’t bother me’ in the 60’s

digitalscream

Emp_Fab said:

digitalscream said:

You're taking a song, removing the societal context from it, then deliberately (and knowingly) removing the original intent of the writer and substituting your own. What could that be construed as other than (at a minimum) "taking that out of context"?

Hang on a cotton-picking minute....  I'm not 'deliberately and knowingly removing.. blah blah'...   I'M NOT THE RADIO STATION THAT HAS BANNED IT !!!  I asked at the beginning how people felt about it.  I don't agree with the banning of the song, but I'm not so pig-headed and blinkered as to be unable to see why they felt it was not suitable to play !!!  But hey... don't let the fucking truth get in the way of a good ol' angry mob eh ?

You're doing exactly that - it's been pointed out numerous times that the societal norms are important and that the interpretation you're foisting on it was not the intent of the writer, yet you persist in saying that neither of those things are as important as societal norms now and the possible misinterpretations of it:

Emp_Fab said:

Back to your point; Absolutely the writer’s intent matters.  However, the perceived intent from a modern-day perspective matters far, far more.  As I said earlier, 95% of people who hear it are not going to go off and research the cultural and social norms of the era it was written in are they?  Of course not!  They’ve going to hear it through the filter of modern day norms - via which, as others have said, it can be seen as ‘rapey’.

You can’t assume people will know it isn’t a new song either, so why would people even think to consider the societal norms of the 1940s when hearing it?

Bellycaster

I think I may have got the perfect Christmas Gift for @Emp_Fab ;

The Carry On Collection.




Absolutely Disgusting!

octatonic

'Fucked with a Knife' by Cannibal Corpse.:

"No escape from your fate
Destined to be mine
Every night I wait to see
In the dark, watching
Stalking your every move
I know when you're all alone
All alone

Tied tight to the bed
Legs spread open
Bruised flesh, lacerations
Skin stained with blood
I'm the only one you love
I feel her heart beating
My knife deep inside
Her crotch is bleeding

She liked the way it felt inside her
Fucking her harder, harder"

Lovely little ditty.

Kilgore

octatonic said:

'Fucked with a Knife' by Cannibal Corpse.:

"No escape from your fate
Destined to be mine
Every night I wait to see
In the dark, watching
Stalking your every move
I know when you're all alone
All alone

Tied tight to the bed
Legs spread open
Bruised flesh, lacerations
Skin stained with blood
I'm the only one you love
I feel her heart beating
My knife deep inside
Her crotch is bleeding

She liked the way it felt inside her
Fucking her harder, harder"

Lovely little ditty.

I'm unfamiliar with this but in my head I can hear a big band version by Michael Buble.

CHRISB50

octatonic said:

'Fucked with a Knife' by Cannibal Corpse.:

"No escape from your fate
Destined to be mine
Every night I wait to see
In the dark, watching
Stalking your every move
I know when you're all alone
All alone

Tied tight to the bed
Legs spread open
Bruised flesh, lacerations
Skin stained with blood
I'm the only one you love
I feel her heart beating
My knife deep inside
Her crotch is bleeding

She liked the way it felt inside her
Fucking her harder, harder"

Lovely little ditty.

You bastard. Got the tune stuck in my head now.

It’s catchy. 

Emp_Fab

digitalscream said:

You're doing exactly that - it's been pointed out numerous times that the societal norms are important and that the interpretation you're foisting on it was not the intent of the writer, yet you persist in saying that neither of those things are as important as societal norms now and the possible misinterpretations of it:

You’re gonna have to break that down for me... I’m not getting your point. One thing I’m curious about in the meantime is that everyone here is claiming that they know what the writer’s intent was.  That’s a tad implausible don’tcha think ?

Paul7926

Emp_Fab said:

digitalscream said:

You're doing exactly that - it's been pointed out numerous times that the societal norms are important and that the interpretation you're foisting on it was not the intent of the writer, yet you persist in saying that neither of those things are as important as societal norms now and the possible misinterpretations of it:

You’re gonna have to break that down for me... I’m not getting your point. One thing I’m curious about in the meantime is that everyone here is claiming that they know what the writer’s intent was.  That’s a tad implausible don’tcha think ?

Didn't someone earlier post up a link or a reference to the writer actually speaking about the songs creation.  Assuming of course that this was not an example of Mr T's 'Fake News' then I think we can have some insight into what they were thinking.

In other news.  If you were driving down a narrow road and everyone else was driving in the opposite direction and flashing their lights at you would you even consider the possibility that you were going the wrong way? 

Emp_Fab

I give up.  You’re a bunch of obtuse idiots. 

stickyfiddle

Emp_Fab said:

digitalscream said:

You're doing exactly that - it's been pointed out numerous times that the societal norms are important and that the interpretation you're foisting on it was not the intent of the writer, yet you persist in saying that neither of those things are as important as societal norms now and the possible misinterpretations of it:

You’re gonna have to break that down for me... I’m not getting your point. One thing I’m curious about in the meantime is that everyone here is claiming that they know what the writer’s intent was.  That’s a tad implausible don’tcha think ?

Not remotely implausible. Are you nuts?

The 2 main verses both end with something confirming the girl is absolutely keen to stay: 

"Maybe just a half a drink more..."

"Well maybe just a cigarette more..."

And I'm sure any of us could actually go line by line through the whole narrative, but I really can't be arsed. 

Feel free though: https://genius.com/Dean-martin-baby-its-cold-outside-lyrics

octatonic

Emp_Fab said:

I give up.  You’re a bunch of obtuse idiots. 

Do you think we should edit "the N word" out of the James Bond books?

digitalscream

Emp_Fab said:

digitalscream said:

You're doing exactly that - it's been pointed out numerous times that the societal norms are important and that the interpretation you're foisting on it was not the intent of the writer, yet you persist in saying that neither of those things are as important as societal norms now and the possible misinterpretations of it:

You’re gonna have to break that down for me... I’m not getting your point.

I'm honestly not sure how I can make it any clearer...?

Emp_Fab said:

One thing I’m curious about in the meantime is that everyone here is claiming that they know what the writer’s intent was.  That’s a tad implausible don’tcha think ?

Oh, c'mon. That's straight out of the siraxeman playbook - refer to everybody else's comments as "claims" but ignore the ones containing actual evidence of it that they're all based on!

Emp_Fab

One final point....  if all that matters is the original intent of the writer and the cultural norms of the period, would any of you care to argue publicly that this song should be on radio stations' playlists ?  (click link for NSFW image of a piece of sheet music). 

I mean - the culture was different back then wasn't it, so that's alright....  isn't it ?

There's a definite double-standard on the forum when it comes to sexism.  You get an A+ when it comes to rallying around to fight the good fight against the slightest attack based on race or sexuality, but a depressing proportion get a D- when it comes to even grasping how something could be seen as being sexist or predatory, let alone argue against it.  Perhaps that's just down to the fact that the forum is 99.9% sausage ?

Paul7926

Emp_Fab said:

There's a definite double-standard on the forum when it comes to sexism.  You get an A+ when it comes to rallying around to fight the good fight against the slightest attack based on race or sexuality, but a depressing proportion get a D- when it comes to even grasping how something could be seen as being sexist or predatory, let alone argue against it.  Perhaps that's just down to the fact that the forum is 99.9% sausage ?

That's not quite true is it?  The truth is that us sausages have looked at the track concerned and in our opinions formed from reading the lyrics and what we can find about the story of how and when it was written have concluded that it is not 'rapey or predatory'.  I get that you don't agree and I get that you don't like the fact that the sausages don't agree.  I also get that after 4 pages of discussion I don't think that anyone has agreed with you.  Guess that makes us D- sausages.  I can live with that.

Dopesick

Go back to bed.

MrBump

Emp_Fab said:

digitalscream said:

You're taking a song, removing the societal context from it, then deliberately (and knowingly) removing the original intent of the writer and substituting your own. What could that be construed as other than (at a minimum) "taking that out of context"?

Hang on a cotton-picking minute....  I'm not 'deliberately and knowingly removing.. blah blah'...   I'M NOT THE RADIO STATION THAT HAS BANNED IT !!!  I asked at the beginning how people felt about it.  I don't agree with the banning of the song, but I'm not so pig-headed and blinkered as to be unable to see why they felt it was not suitable to play !!!  But hey... don't let the fucking truth get in the way of a good ol' angry mob eh ?

Is "cotton-picking" cultural appropriation?

Just asking...

octatonic

MrBump said:

Emp_Fab said:

digitalscream said:

You're taking a song, removing the societal context from it, then deliberately (and knowingly) removing the original intent of the writer and substituting your own. What could that be construed as other than (at a minimum) "taking that out of context"?

Hang on a cotton-picking minute....  I'm not 'deliberately and knowingly removing.. blah blah'...   I'M NOT THE RADIO STATION THAT HAS BANNED IT !!!  I asked at the beginning how people felt about it.  I don't agree with the banning of the song, but I'm not so pig-headed and blinkered as to be unable to see why they felt it was not suitable to play !!!  But hey... don't let the fucking truth get in the way of a good ol' angry mob eh ?

Is "cotton-picking" cultural appropriation?

Just asking...

I'd say it is an overtly racist term.
I don't think Emp is a racist though- he just said a racist thing.

Sassafras

I'm not so sure about that. The name Emp suggests imperialism and the subjugation and exploitation of indigenous populations.
I find it offensive.

Snags

Assuming the goal posts stand still for a while ...

Personally I don't particularly care about the writer's intentions, and any under-grad lit crit ponce will have been deafened by their "intentional fallacy" klaxon with any such discussions.

However that doesn't really matter because even under modern culture reference points you still have to go out of your way to interpret it is "a bit rapey" when you take the text as a whole. Unless someone deliberately creates a dark version of the song. All of the traditional ones are quite clearly not rapey in the least.  So at most you might want to be sensitive about the contexts in which you played it.

Also, whilst the author's intentions don't matter particularly for interpretation, the historical context does. It's called hermeneutics, and is something that is vital to properly understanding anything, really.

Comparing it to overt racism is a false equivalence, because the whole "flirtation game" is still a thing today, and that's basically that "Baby it's cold outside" is. Whereas today we've (largely) moved on from thinking that people are inferior purely based on the colour of their skin. I still wouldn't want the racist texts of history banned, though; just rendered obsolete and irrelevant, and therefore of no interest other than as items for academic study.