So how tough is it to make a career in the world of guitar?

Blueingreen

I'd be concerned about the word "career".  That implies a sustained, long-term means of earning a living.  The demand for guitarists - players, teachers, even techs 15 or 20 years hence is hugely difficult to predict.  We're getting progressively further away from the era when the electric guitar dominated popular music.  I wouldn't be recommending that a youngster put too many of his or her eggs in this particular basket.

WiresDreamDisasters

Blueingreen said:

I'd be concerned about the word "career".  That implies a sustained, long-term means of earning a living.  The demand for guitarists - players, teachers, even techs 15 or 20 years hence is hugely difficult to predict.  We're getting progressively further away from the era when the electric guitar dominated popular music.  I wouldn't be recommending that a youngster put too many of his or her eggs in this particular basket.

And yet curiously sales of guitars, amps, effects pedals, multi-effects, and other guitar-related equipment are on the rise after seeing a bit of a dip in 2015 and 2016, iirc.

carlos

Blueingreen said:

We're getting progressively further away from the era when the electric guitar dominated popular music.

Even then you'd have a pitiful few people making a career out of it. Perhaps make some money for a couple of years while you're in demand, but then it dries up. This is from my observations and reading biographies, I haven't really walked the walk.

carlos

DrJazzTap said:

I think you don't have to play like Guthrie to make a living from it. I would love to do something like music therapy for adults with learning disablities.

I think playing like Guthrie might be a deterrent! That genre is not where the audiences are. A lot of guitarists I admire are (likely) making less money than their peers of same social background, age, education level would be. Far, far less. Last year I saw Mary Halvorson at Pizza Express London. Perhaps 20 of us in the audience, £15 tickets and she had to fly over from New York, etc. That's not rock'n'roll lifestyle.

I see a lot of ads for stuff like cruise ships where the pay is very good, but obviously you will be away from home for a while and need to sight read and keep your ego locked in your guitar case. You can also land a gig with a famous and long lasting band like Nels Cline did w/ Wilko but how can you plan for something like that? You can prepare, but luck will always be a huge factor. What if the frontman decides he'll do a solo playing the acoustic himself for next year? You're out of a job and on the hustle... again.

Modulus_Amps

Find a niche. The guys that do well, do well at something specific.

It is bloody hard to get people to take notice of you if you don't have a big name brand on your t-shirt

good luck

octatonic

I know some of the guys in a really big 90's band (won't say which one).
They are still going as an entity but they don't have houses or pensions- there is no real security for the future.

By way of balance another guy I know was in a big 90's band that did a few soundtracks, he managed to buy a studio space in Hackney and has a degree of security for the future.

p90fool

carlos said:

Blueingreen said:

We're getting progressively further away from the era when the electric guitar dominated popular music.

Even then you'd have a pitiful few people making a career out of it. Perhaps make some money for a couple of years while you're in demand, but then it dries up. This is from my observations and reading biographies, I haven't really walked the walk.

I think it's not commonly known that there's a musical world well away from the Famous Rock Star route, where people just get stuff done for money without the boom/bust mentality that a stab at fame can bring. 

Music is everywhere, from online advertising to corporate video, and somebody somewhere has to write, play and produce it. 

Three weeks ago I was at a networking session involving engineers and producers who work with a lot of big names including Black Keys, RHCP, Beyonce and countless others, some big name session musicians (like Wendy Melvoin among others) and three studio owners. 

There were about thirty of us, a few drinks and nibbles and a lot of connections got made. This happened four miles from my house in a small mid-Wales town and it happens everywhere, all the time. 

I suspect the OP is probably better placed than me to make those contacts, but you have to get yourself out there.  

ToneControl

Are there no options in Japan?
You probably have many other alternative options there?

WiresDreamDisasters

ToneControl said:

Are there no options in Japan?
You probably have many other alternative options there?

Not without the language. I can order a beer, but that's about it!

richh

It's been discussed here before, but the documentary 'Hired Gun' on Netflix is quite interesting and shows how competitive it is to get the top gigs, and how easy it is to lose the gig as well!

StuartMac290

I've only ever made my living from making music, and whilst it's an insanely tough world sometimes I do recognise how lucky I am to do so.

I can only comment from the point of view of a touring and recording musician, because that's all I really know. What I would say for a start is make sure it really IS what you want to do. It can have a devastating effect on relationships and home life - most of my oldest friends are or were full-time touring musicians, and the harsh reality is almost none of them have their marriages and families intact as a result.I work with a lot of newly-signed artists and all too often the penny is just starting to drop for a lot of them as to how hard it actually all is.

I was in a band who were signed to a major label in my very early 20s and realistically everything since has stemmed from that. The producers we worked with often hired me for other records they worked on afterwards, and that led to further live opportunities etc and the chance to build up a reputation quickly. When the band were dropped I kept working and did more and more session and live work, which in those days was pretty lucrative. At the same time I wrote songs for the band and a few other folk and that's still the main source of income for most signed musicians.

I actually stopped touring altogether when my daughter was born in the mid-90s. I'd seen the effects of the touring life on too many families and realised it just wasn't for me. I didn't want to miss her growing up, and the first gig I was offered around the time of her birth was a 4 month tour, with just a five week break afterwards before another 2 months out. Sod that. There are people who make that work for them but for me it wasn't worth the risk.

I was fortunate in that I was able to seamlessly move into production, and I'd been savvy enough to watch some of the engineers we'd worked with very closely and pick their brains constantly. These were the days of 6-figure recording budgets and these engineers were the best on the planet at the time, so it was a hell of an education.

Nowadays 75% of my work is production and engineering, although I do almost always end up doing guitars on the records I produce too. Producers' points on albums don't generate anywhere NEAR the income they used to, so it's really important for everyone to keep their housekeeping in order and stay on top of things like PPL and PRS income.

It's a very, very different industry now to the one I grew up in. Notably, only one of my friends from that time is still doing this full-time, and he plays with a band that still sell-out 12000 - 14000 seaters across Europe. My guess is if I'd kept touring I'd probably still be making a living from it - he and I did a lot of the same gigs and tours - but other income sources would be a lot less lucrative nowadays. I still get to do the odd big show and it's a massive buzz, but I'm glad I don't HAVE to do it.

Making a living as a new artist CAN still be done - I've worked on records in the last 15 years or so that have sold in the millions, but it's exceptionally rare now, and live income is more important than ever. That, and radio. I also manage an artist (who I happen to be marrying) so I see first-hand how hard the industry has become. That said, she makes enough from her writing and album sales to make a living if she wants to full-time.

Things to bear in mind: of all the bands who DO sign a major record deal, which very generously is probably about 1 in 1000, only SIX percent have ever turned a profit. Historically 94% of the industry has always run at a loss, it's just that in the past the 6% who DID make money made such vast sums for their labels that they could afford to chuck cash at the rest. Those odds are absurd, and I can think of no other industry that runs like that.

And that's when things were good. Nowadays, advances are tiny, streaming income is a joke, and competition from legacy acts charging £100 a ticket has decimated the live income opportunities for newly signed acts.

Also, remember that image is EVERYTHING. Image and perception. If someone tells you they don't like the guitar you've brought, get another. If you're a sideman, your job is entirely to be as hassle-free and easy as possible. If your gear develops a fault, the artist doesn't want to know. The management don't want to know. Make no fuss whatsoever, get your tech to look at it quietly, get on with the show. No dramas whatsoever. Get a great tech that knows you and your setup better than you do (I was really spoiled in that regard). Don't treat ANYONE like shit, be it local crew or a venue's monitor engineer, or the catering staff, or anyone. These things are noted and never forgotten. Alway, always play to the track. Always. Nobody's interested in your shredding, there simply isn't an audience for it and 99.999% of the general public who are not guitarists think it's awful anyway. If you're asked to do a solo make it something the audience can whistle. If you get asked to do a session make sure you're so good you become essential and reliable. Remember, it's not your gig. 

Similarly if you get a good support slot, know how to behave. Learn the etiquette involved - there's a LOT of do's and don'ts. Stay out the way, touch NOTHING on stage, and again, be as hassle-free as possible. One of the acts I play with is guys whose sales are in the millions, and they are meticulous when it comes to picking supports, because it has to be people who know the drill inside out. Make the right impression and you'll get more.

If you're going for it, properly commit to it. See who's successful, see who the labels are signing, work out why, see if you can fit in. Don't make music for other guitarists, make music people will buy.

FreddieVanHalen

StuartMac290 said:

Similarly if you get a good support slot, know how to behave. Learn the etiquette involved - there's a LOT of do's and don'ts. Stay out the way, touch NOTHING on stage, and again, be as hassle-free as possible. 

It's not my thread but I appreciate you taking the time to write that up, it was interesting reading.

I don't think I'll ever be working at this level in music, so it's more out of curiosity, but are there any do's and don'ts that people find surprising or get caught out on most commonly when they're starting in this work? Or is it mostly common sense providing that you have a "main artist comes first" and otherwise respectful attitude?

carlos

Also, remember that image is EVERYTHING. Image and perception. If someone tells you they don't like the guitar you've brought, get another.

Even at my barely professional level I've lost gigs because of bringing the wrong guitar to an audition. Not wrong sounding guitar, just wrong looking.

StuartMac290

FreddieVanHalen said:

StuartMac290 said:

Similarly if you get a good support slot, know how to behave. Learn the etiquette involved - there's a LOT of do's and don'ts. Stay out the way, touch NOTHING on stage, and again, be as hassle-free as possible. 

It's not my thread but I appreciate you taking the time to write that up, it was interesting reading.

I don't think I'll ever be working at this level in music, so it's more out of curiosity, but are there any do's and don'ts that people find surprising or get caught out on most commonly when they're starting in this work? Or is it mostly common sense providing that you have a "main artist comes first" and otherwise respectful attitude?

Touch absolutely NOTHING on stage, not a single lead. Set up in the very limited space that you have to play with and don't move so much as a plectrum.

Expect nothing from the main act. If they talk to you at all consider that a bonus. The crew will quite possibly be arsehole-ish to you. Smile and be totally professional. Opening slots for major acts are pretty much a first rung, you have to make the most of the opportunity and make sure you're asked back for more.

Basically, be absolutely zero hassle whatsoever, just there to do the job - which is to warm up the crowd for the main act. 

StuartMac290

carlos said:

Also, remember that image is EVERYTHING. Image and perception. If someone tells you they don't like the guitar you've brought, get another.

Even at my barely professional level I've lost gigs because of bringing the wrong guitar to an audition. Not wrong sounding guitar, just wrong looking.

Absolutely. I once got a gig with a big act but almost blew it by using a PRS at the audition. I was told in no uncertain terms to leave it at home in future.

carlos

StuartMac290 said:

carlos said:

Also, remember that image is EVERYTHING. Image and perception. If someone tells you they don't like the guitar you've brought, get another.

Even at my barely professional level I've lost gigs because of bringing the wrong guitar to an audition. Not wrong sounding guitar, just wrong looking.

Absolutely. I once got a gig with a big act but almost blew it by using a PRS at the audition. I was told in no uncertain terms to leave it at home in future.

I took my Steinberger to a jam in somebody's loft to try out and see if I fit. Barely any indication of genre or what music they wanted to make. I take it out of the case and "mate, this isn't an 80's tribute band, what the fuck?". There was no coming back from that.

FreddieVanHalen

carlos said:

I took my Steinberger to a jam in somebody's loft to try out and see if I fit. Barely any indication of genre or what music they wanted to make. I take it out of the case and "mate, this isn't an 80's tribute band, what the fuck?". There was no coming back from that.

1. They're easy to carry
2. They used to get called a cricket bat for a reason ;-)

carlos

FreddieVanHalen said:

carlos said:

I took my Steinberger to a jam in somebody's loft to try out and see if I fit. Barely any indication of genre or what music they wanted to make. I take it out of the case and "mate, this isn't an 80's tribute band, what the fuck?". There was no coming back from that.

1. They're easy to carry
2. They used to get called a cricket bat for a reason ;-)

To be fair it was the one w/ double cut body shape, but I still got all that grief.

Kebabkid

As a player, very difficult. Just based on all the musicians/musically-linked people I know, I counted only 4 making a living as
pro-guitarists/bassists and certainly 2 of those are in major bands as sidemen.

The Drummers seem to fair better but more success seems to be with guitar teachers, gear reps or in music retail and in recording.

octatonic

carlos said:

Also, remember that image is EVERYTHING. Image and perception. If someone tells you they don't like the guitar you've brought, get another.

Even at my barely professional level I've lost gigs because of bringing the wrong guitar to an audition. Not wrong sounding guitar, just wrong looking.

You usually can't go wrong with a Tele or a Les Paul.
Even a Strat can send the wrong message (Superstrats in indie bands, for instance).
If I cannot qualify what I should bring I usually bring a Tele.