So how tough is it to make a career in the world of guitar?

carlos

I really need to find a Tele I like. I actually like the double single coils, it's the combination of the small radius, tiny frets and that bridge that doesn't work for me.

octatonic

carlos said:

I really need to find a Tele I like. I actually like the double single coils, it's the combination of the small radius, tiny frets and that bridge that doesn't work for me.

Try Anderson or Suhr.
Compound radius, heavy frets and your choice of bridge.

I now pause to receive a torrent of abuse about them not being ‘proper Teles’.

StuartMac290

carlos said:

I really need to find a Tele I like. I actually like the double single coils, it's the combination of the small radius, tiny frets and that bridge that doesn't work for me.

Most teles don't have small frets or a small radius. The bridge might be more of a problem but it's a big part of the sound.

A Tele and a 335 will cover everything, especially if you replace the Tele neck pickup with a stratty one.

octatonic

StuartMac290 said:

carlos said:

I really need to find a Tele I like. I actually like the double single coils, it's the combination of the small radius, tiny frets and that bridge that doesn't work for me.

Most teles don't have small frets or a small radius. The bridge might be more of a problem but it's a big part of the sound.

A Tele and a 335 will cover everything, especially if you replace the Tele neck pickup with a stratty one.

... except metal.

StuartMac290

octatonic said:

StuartMac290 said:

carlos said:

I really need to find a Tele I like. I actually like the double single coils, it's the combination of the small radius, tiny frets and that bridge that doesn't work for me.

Most teles don't have small frets or a small radius. The bridge might be more of a problem but it's a big part of the sound.

A Tele and a 335 will cover everything, especially if you replace the Tele neck pickup with a stratty one.

... except metal.

Actually I did a metal session this week using a Tele into a Soldano for the rhythm parts and a 335 for lead 

Teetonetal

Was too tough for me. 2001 through 2006 really made a go of it. Teaching, session playing, 3 bands. Made peanuts, got burned out, gave up for 5 years and moved to europe.

Vibetronic

StuartMac290 said:

I've only ever made my living from making music, and whilst it's an insanely tough world sometimes I do recognise how lucky I am to do so.

great post! 

I work as a guitar teacher now having spent 15 years in an office job (should add, having taught for 20+years intermittently already); it was doing my head in and I had to leave. I'm in a fortunate situation where we could afford to do that; I'm on a fraction of what I was money-wise, but it's made a huge difference to pretty much everything, and I absolutely love my work now. I wouldn't be able to support myself on what I earn now yet, but my hours are steadily increasing and it is actually getting there. I've done a (very) small amount of session work but it's incredibly hard to get into; you have to know the right people for a start. Ditto getting into school teaching - the musical community (around here at least) is pretty tight, and if someone is off ill/leaves, it's more than likely that it'll be a mate who'll fill in for them. If you do this sort of thing it's never going to be for the money, you really do have to love it - people will pick up pretty quickly if you don't have the enthusiasm. You do have to put yourself 'out there' a lot too, which takes a bit of getting used to. I've learnt that saying 'yes' to pretty much every kind of opportunity that comes along is a good idea and can lead to other good stuff happening, even if it's just making contacts.

Band-wise I'm in a prog-metal group...we've got an album coming out, and if we make enough to cover travel expenses for gigs that'll be pretty good  Also doing a sort of function band thing, but that's still getting off the ground. I had a bunch of mates who got signed in the late 90s, did a couple of albums and some huge gigs, but eventually ended up going nowhere and made next to nothing. I know for a fact that's not the sort of lifestyle I'd ever enjoy either. 

matdotcodot

Always admired the way Steve Albini works and deals with the music industry, rarely seems to have do things he doesn't want to, and always retains a very pragmatic sense of perspective.

TTBZ

I'd never have a career playing because I'm not good or consistent enough and value stability. I got lucky and found a job in the industry though, I do marketing "digital content" (photos and videos basically). Gets me my guitar fix and fun job without having to actually play bad for GAS though.

On the other hand be careful what you wish for, I don't enjoy playing guitar as much as I used to, it's not just something special I do for fun any more. Find it harder to separate work and fun because my head's always in it. My ideal would probably be doing something music related but not necessarily a guitar company.

octatonic

matdotcodot said:

Always admired the way Steve Albini works and deals with the music industry, rarely seems to have do things he doesn't want to, and always retains a very pragmatic sense of perspective.

Great video.

Modellista

matdotcodot said:

Always admired the way Steve Albini works and deals with the music industry, rarely seems to have do things he doesn't want to, and always retains a very pragmatic sense of perspective.

However much I agree with Albini's stubborn ethos, he has to play pro poker and sell off his famous gear to ward off bankruptcy, so I'm not sure it's a masterclass in financial solvency.

willrejones

StuartMac290 said:

I've only ever made my living from making music, and whilst it's an insanely tough world sometimes I do recognise how lucky I am to do so.

Great post - my two cents from being a member of a band.

I was also lucky enough to get signed by a major label around the time I'd turned 20. For about 6 months we were told we were the priority act on a major label, looking forward to a top 5 album, maybe even a number 1. As kids and absolute novices in the industry, we had no idea what we were involved with - we were just enjoying getting free clothes and recording an album in a high end studio with a super-producer of some repute. It took us a while to sniff out the total bullshit that was being fed to us by everyone we worked with.

At the time, the emphasis was all on radio. If you could get on radio, it would take off.

It felt like there were two avenues - you are a pop band and you get on the radio. That means dressing like a pop band, speaking like a pop band and sounding like a pop band. That's quite a big sacrifice for anyone and most fans can figure out when you start positioning yourself like that. The other option is you try and endear yourself to the Pitchfork crowd - that meant trying to be 'cool' and become a buzz band in that world. 

Despite signing a relatively sizeable first album deal with a very substantial advance, the reality is one you take off tax,  management commission and then split what's left 5 ways (with 5 members) - that money needs to last you until you sign your next deal. So when your album's release is being delayed because radio aren't supporting your singles, you quite quickly realise what seemed a big number is actually nothing at all. I wasn't making any money. We had royalties come through from PRS and PPL but I was lucky if these were more than £100 every few months. Bear in mind the band, at the time when I left, had roughly 1.5 million people listening to us on Spotify alone every month. That's not a small number. We have a gold single in the US - I still struggled to make any money out of it.

Eventually we got dropped because a top 40 album wasn't a decent return on what they invested - fair enough. We found ourselves signed to a much smaller label where we had more control but had to adapt to a much, much smaller budget. This was a refreshing time because we felt in control and knew we could squeeze as much as possible from any budget we had.

However after about 5 years, I decided to quit as I couldn't function on the tiny amount of money I was earning. I spent most of  my time feeling like shit as I had no money and no control over my career. Ironic as I was doing 'what I loved', but I was utterly miserable. I couldn't afford to do anything outside of the band. Couldn't move out of my mum and dad's, couldn't go on holiday. I now work a 9-5 in the City and I love it. Why? Because it's just a job. I turn up, do what's required and relish the simple things like seeing my mates and having some structure in my life. Nice to get paid as well so I can buy things like Kempers and pedals and new guitars. 

You need to write good songs, first and foremost. You need to put your musicianship to the side and realise 99% of people don't care about shredding or how complex your chord progression are. People want hooks. If you have writing credits and you get a lot of streams, you will make some money. You need to be touring a lot. The most successful bands financially are those that have opened themselves up in the UK, Europe and the US and are able to go on touring cycles for a couple of years where they can stay constantly busy and by extension are constantly making money. I know some bands who make preposterous amounts of money through touring. But they also have number 1 albums, filled with great songs. No songs, no touring, no money.

I think the bottom line of being a member of a successful band is you really need to love it enough to sacrifice everything else in your life for it. You need to be savvy and you need to be level headed and honest. There's too much bullshit in the industry, you need to sift through it and have an absolutely crystal clear vision of where you want to be and what you want to do, which few people have. These days Spotify and label services deals through companies like Kobalt puts much more power in the hands of the artist, but only the artists with a singular vision will be able to translate what they're all about to the fans who at the end of the day put the money in their pockets.

Anyway, apologies for the essay. That was my experience anyway. Great fun sometimes but hard bloody work most of the time.

grappagreen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phkpLJXuHZA

Nuff said..

StuartMac290

willrejones said:

StuartMac290 said:

I've only ever made my living from making music, and whilst it's an insanely tough world sometimes I do recognise how lucky I am to do so.

Great post - my two cents from being a member of a band.

I was also lucky enough to get signed by a major label around the time I'd turned 20. For about 6 months we were told we were the priority act on a major label, looking forward to a top 5 album, maybe even a number 1. As kids and absolute novices in the industry, we had no idea what we were involved with - we were just enjoying getting free clothes and recording an album in a high end studio with a super-producer of some repute. It took us a while to sniff out the total bullshit that was being fed to us by everyone we worked with.

At the time, the emphasis was all on radio. If you could get on radio, it would take off.

It felt like there were two avenues - you are a pop band and you get on the radio. That means dressing like a pop band, speaking like a pop band and sounding like a pop band. That's quite a big sacrifice for anyone and most fans can figure out when you start positioning yourself like that. The other option is you try and endear yourself to the Pitchfork crowd - that meant trying to be 'cool' and become a buzz band in that world. 

Despite signing a relatively sizeable first album deal with a very substantial advance, the reality is one you take off tax,  management commission and then split what's left 5 ways (with 5 members) - that money needs to last you until you sign your next deal. So when your album's release is being delayed because radio aren't supporting your singles, you quite quickly realise what seemed a big number is actually nothing at all. I wasn't making any money. We had royalties come through from PRS and PPL but I was lucky if these were more than £100 every few months. Bear in mind the band, at the time when I left, had roughly 1.5 million people listening to us on Spotify alone every month. That's not a small number. We have a gold single in the US - I still struggled to make any money out of it.

Eventually we got dropped because a top 40 album wasn't a decent return on what they invested - fair enough. We found ourselves signed to a much smaller label where we had more control but had to adapt to a much, much smaller budget. This was a refreshing time because we felt in control and knew we could squeeze as much as possible from any budget we had.

However after about 5 years, I decided to quit as I couldn't function on the tiny amount of money I was earning. I spent most of  my time feeling like shit as I had no money and no control over my career. Ironic as I was doing 'what I loved', but I was utterly miserable. I couldn't afford to do anything outside of the band. Couldn't move out of my mum and dad's, couldn't go on holiday. I now work a 9-5 in the City and I love it. Why? Because it's just a job. I turn up, do what's required and relish the simple things like seeing my mates and having some structure in my life. Nice to get paid as well so I can buy things like Kempers and pedals and new guitars. 

You need to write good songs, first and foremost. You need to put your musicianship to the side and realise 99% of people don't care about shredding or how complex your chord progression are. People want hooks. If you have writing credits and you get a lot of streams, you will make some money. You need to be touring a lot. The most successful bands financially are those that have opened themselves up in the UK, Europe and the US and are able to go on touring cycles for a couple of years where they can stay constantly busy and by extension are constantly making money. I know some bands who make preposterous amounts of money through touring. But they also have number 1 albums, filled with great songs. No songs, no touring, no money.

I think the bottom line of being a member of a successful band is you really need to love it enough to sacrifice everything else in your life for it. You need to be savvy and you need to be level headed and honest. There's too much bullshit in the industry, you need to sift through it and have an absolutely crystal clear vision of where you want to be and what you want to do, which few people have. These days Spotify and label services deals through companies like Kobalt puts much more power in the hands of the artist, but only the artists with a singular vision will be able to translate what they're all about to the fans who at the end of the day put the money in their pockets.

Anyway, apologies for the essay. That was my experience anyway. Great fun sometimes but hard bloody work most of the time.

Great post.

Something else I should have mentioned; it's got better but major labels traditionally threw ludicrous sums of money at bands to the point they almost never recouped and therefore couldn't make any money.

My own band's debut album reportedly cost £183,000 to make. In 1991. Factor in the inflation, and...well yes. By the time we were dropped we'd apparently rattled up a debt in the region of four hundred grand. In two years. Even if the label's wildest predictions for our success had come to fruition, we'd probably never have made a penny.

Even if miraculously you DO recoup (and you have to sell far, far more than your sums tell you to do so) you're only getting 13% of the eventual profits, between all of you. Minus the producer's percentage (typically 2.5 - 4%) and your management's 20%. Between six of us (in our case).

That's why I set up my studio the way I did. The idea is that it's of major-label standard but without putting the band tens of thousands in debt, meaning once the album starts to sell even modestly they can actually make some fucking money from their music.

Crazy idea, I know. It'll never catch on.

p90fool

Modellista said:

matdotcodot said:

Always admired the way Steve Albini works and deals with the music industry, rarely seems to have do things he doesn't want to, and always retains a very pragmatic sense of perspective.

However much I agree with Albini's stubborn ethos, he has to play pro poker and sell off his famous gear to ward off bankruptcy, so I'm not sure it's a masterclass in financial solvency.

That's very true and also true of his mentor Iain Burgess, who I worked with after he moved from Chicago to set up a studio in the Loire Valley. 
Iain was a lovely guy, a good and generous friend and an admirable purist, but he also limped about in a shagged out Renault he didn't even have a licence for and never had any cash. 

He did lay the foundation of a fantastic analogue studio which is still thriving today though, nine years after his death. I suspect Albini is similar in that he regards everything that isn't his work as inconsequential trivia, which can be a nice way to live if you're single! 

mike257

Some great posts in here.  I've been making a living from the music industry full time for the last six-and-a-bit years, and juggling it with raising a young family, with a wife who works a full time and very demanding job.

The key thing for me has been diversity - fingers in pies, as it's been said already.  In the last few years, I've done everything from tour managing major label artists, production managing festivals, mixing FOH and monitors everywhere from arenas to massive festivals to tiny clubs, guitar teching, playing in (my own and other people's) function bands.  I run a small production company supplying sound and lighting for events, whilst freelancing for bigger companies, and operate a splitter van for touring transport, with a bunch of freelance techs and drivers working for me.  I've done bits of session work, installed sound systems in clubs and venues, composed/arranged the occasional bit of music - basically anything I can turn my hand to that's vaguely related, no matter how high-end or low-end that may be!

I sometimes think I'd have been better off specialising in one area, but having the family to look after, particularly as one of my kids is autistic and needs a lot of care, means full time touring isn't a practicality for me right now, and I have to be able to say "no" to things every once in a while - the flexibility to drop in and out of different things makes juggling home and work life a lot more practical.

I've got plenty of friends who make a full time living just from playing their instrument.  The busiest ones are those who can hold down a solo gig as well as work in a band, and they do anything from running open mic nights to touring with theatre shows and large scale tribute acts.  I'll often see their hectic gigging schedules though, sometimes hopping across three venues in one night, and feel glad that I'm not doing it!  As much as I love being on the stage, six nights a week of constant gigging from place to place like that would burn me out, and my work/life balance would go out the window.   It's a very difficult thing to juggle with 'normal adult life'.

The other thing I find myself thinking about at the ripe old age of 34 is where I see myself in 10/15/20 years.  Whilst I absolutely love it now, I'm not sure heaving all that kit around or playing back to back gigs all summer long is going to appeal as much when I'm hitting my 50s.  Whilst it's totally possible to get in to a position to earn a decent wedge from playing, I see a lot of people with no exit plan.  To a certain degree, it's a young man's game.  It's definitely at the forefront of my mind to be building a business out of it that doesn't necessarily depend on my constant presence at every gig for it to continue functioning and for me to earn a living.  I see plenty of guys who've hit that age, burned out, and struggle by with nothing to show for it. I think that's the part that often gets overlooked in these conversations.  Everyone talks about how you get the breaks to get in to it, but nobody mentions how you come out the other side with any hope of a half decent retirement ahead of you.

jeztone2

Creed_Clicks said:

jeztone2 said:

I’d say look at other countries. I’ve always played music. Been in bands. Done the odd paid session. But if I could do it again. I think I’d have relocated. Musicians are not treated well in this society. Whenever I go abroad, they seem more valued. A couple of school friends are techs. But that happened by chance for both of them. 

 

Where out of curiosity? I have friends who have gigged in Toronto and speak highly of the audiences there (in the original music scene) and they're from Ireland.
I have gigged professionally and semi professionaly in covers bands. There's a living there if you want it, but my experience in the original music game was no money, but a lot of fun, and it's a different kind of animal.
I'm not playing live really at the moment, and would love to do it, but am about to relocate this year to Spain, so haven't commited to much in the last year or so.
I have no idea what Spain will be like for musicians. I won't be in a tourist spot to play in ex pat bars, so will have to delve into some kind of local scene....

Judging by the reactions of my American friends I’d say the States. They seem to love live music and rock bands. 

digitalscream

I'm astonished that people still want to try to do it. I can't imagine anything worse...as my only relevant experience, I used to love computers. Everything about them - making them (from kits, with a soldering iron), programming them, building stuff that does things powered by them, writing naughty code to piss network admins off...it was all fun. Then I got a job, and my living revolves around them.

Now I hate them. I would happily never spend another minute with one, but they're a mainstay of every part of my life.

How do I get away from that? I play guitar. It's fun. I wouldn't ruin that by needing to play it to eat.

Frankly, the music industry only ever loses me time and money (a rather large part of that is this place), but I'm totally comfortable with that. I can leave at any time.

...right?

thomasross20

Is 'hired gun' still on Netflix? 

This is a great thread with some great contributors. I'd been playing a couple years really seriously and it came time for me to choose between music or engineering. I'm 100% glad I went for the engineering job. It's interesting in itself and as willrejones says.. it's a stable 9-5 which pays and can enjoy music in spare time. Making a decent living out of being a performing musician ... Just one in a million sort of thing and have to sacrifice your life for it. Hope that doesn't sound too harsh! 

TBH even being a weekend warrior is dubious as a pastime... Sitting on your ass practising alone for hours, infrequent low-paid gigs late at night, playing to punters who don't care. You really have to do it for the love of music!

Wazmeister

@StuartMac290 ;

Mate, that is THE best post I’ve ever seen on here...