So today I finally tried a Boss Katana

darthed1981

steveledzep said:

 From reading on here, I gather @Rocker is knowledgeable about hifi.  I like my hifi too and the industry is obsessed with superior power supplies and snake oil quality cables.  I don't subscribe to the snake oil bit, but do agree that a power cable is important to the performance of the component being fed.  The quality of the power cable being used is irrelevant here, Rocker's point is that if you're comparing amplifiers, there must be zero variables other than the amplifiers themselves.

Surely to hear a difference based on a power cable you would also need to rewire your house.... and possibly the national grid?

steveledzep

darthed1981 said:

steveledzep said:

 From reading on here, I gather @Rocker is knowledgeable about hifi.  I like my hifi too and the industry is obsessed with superior power supplies and snake oil quality cables.  I don't subscribe to the snake oil bit, but do agree that a power cable is important to the performance of the component being fed.  The quality of the power cable being used is irrelevant here, Rocker's point is that if you're comparing amplifiers, there must be zero variables other than the amplifiers themselves.

Surely to hear a difference based on a power cable you would also need to rewire your house.... and possibly the national grid?

steveledzep

I understand what you're saying.  But...the wiring of the house and the national grid are constants.....the power cable to the amp is a variable if different leads are used.  I'm sure they'll make no difference, but in the interests of a scientific experiment, the leads must be the same for each amplifier.

ICBM

steveledzep said:

I understand what you're saying.  But...the wiring of the house and the national grid are constants.....the power cable to the amp is a variable if different leads are used.  I'm sure they'll make no difference, but in the interests of a scientific experiment, the leads must be the same for each amplifier.

Except that it makes no difference. None. Zero. Power cables cannot and do not affect the sound of the amp.

If anything, it’s actually fluctuations in the supply voltage - which do occur - that could make a detectable difference.

Anyway, what would you do if the amps had hardwired power cables?

steveledzep

ICBM said:

steveledzep said:

I understand what you're saying.  But...the wiring of the house and the national grid are constants.....the power cable to the amp is a variable if different leads are used.  I'm sure they'll make no difference, but in the interests of a scientific experiment, the leads must be the same for each amplifier.

Except that it makes no difference. None. Zero. Power cables cannot and do not affect the sound of the amp.

If anything, it’s actually fluctuations in the supply voltage - which do occur - that could make a detectable difference.

Anyway, what would you do if the amps had hardwired power cables?

You're missing my point.  You are arguing that different power supply cables will make no difference.  I'm inclined to agree, however.... You wouldn't have to argue your point if the same power supply cable is used for each amplifier.  It's eliminating variables.

ICBM

steveledzep said:

You're missing my point.  You are arguing that different power supply cables will make no difference.  I'm inclined to agree, however.... You wouldn't have to argue your point if the same power supply cable is used for each amplifier.  It's eliminating variables.

I’m not missing your point, I’m saying it’s irrelevant. You may as well argue that you need to use the same air in the room.

Some things simply don’t affect the outcome of an experiment, so can be ignored.

And again, what do you do about amps with hardwired power cables?

steveledzep

When I first joined this forum, I have to say that I was pissed off with your condescending, holier than thou, I know best posts.  Since then, I have read with interest what you have to say and have accepted that you are a very knowledgeable guy.  In this instance, you are incorrect. To do an accurate comparison between two amplifiers you have to have the power supply identical in both instances.  I accept that there is likely to be minimal or no difference, that is not the point !  You assure me that there is no difference, I don't accept that.  Your opinion is skewing the result of the comparison.

p90fool

steveledzep said:

When I first joined this forum, I have to say that I was pissed off with your condescending, holier than thou, I know best posts.  Since then, I have read with interest what you have to say and have accepted that you are a very knowledgeable guy.  In this instance, you are incorrect. To do an accurate comparison between two amplifiers you have to have the power supply identical in both instances.  I accept that there is likely to be minimal or no difference, that is not the point !  You assure me that there is no difference, I don't accept that.  Your opinion is skewing the result of the comparison.

You have the hi-fi buff's obsession with the last three feet of cable in the dozens of miles the power has travelled to get to your equipment, which, as someone who worked briefly for a well known snake oil company where I actually built £3k power cables I have some sympathy with despite knowing it's just silliness. 

A guitar amp power cable comes in two types however, and those are Broken and Not Broken. I get the scientific method bit, but the power cable is not a variable, the same stuff comes out of the end and into the amp whatever. 

Someone accused me of being rude the other day for asserting (quite politely in fact) that mixing up treble bleed and treble pass is not a matter of opinion, so I have to leap to @ICBM 's defence and say that accuracy is not condescencion, it's just accuracy. 

longi

ICBM said:

steveledzep said:

You're missing my point.  You are arguing that different power supply cables will make no difference.  I'm inclined to agree, however.... You wouldn't have to argue your point if the same power supply cable is used for each amplifier.  It's eliminating variables.

I’m not missing your point, I’m saying it’s irrelevant. You may as well argue that you need to use the same air in the room.

Some things simply don’t affect the outcome of an experiment, so can be ignored.

And again, what do you do about amps with hardwired power cables?

I'm an electrician and I agree with ICBM. Mains cables don't make a difference.

Mains come in, then gets fed through the signal chain. The only thing that would make a difference would be the length of cable (volt drop) and whether the cable had a short on it (BANG!) and the manufacturing tolerances between the components of the amps. The manufacturing tolerances would make a real difference so a side by side experiment would be pointless.

If you had a super duper fandango mains cable your ears probably wouldn't hear any difference from the cable anyway because our hearing isn't that good.

ICBM

steveledzep said:

When I first joined this forum, I have to say that I was pissed off with your condescending, holier than thou, I know best posts.  Since then, I have read with interest what you have to say and have accepted that you are a very knowledgeable guy.  In this instance, you are incorrect. To do an accurate comparison between two amplifiers you have to have the power supply identical in both instances.  I accept that there is likely to be minimal or no difference, that is not the point !  You assure me that there is no difference, I don't accept that.  Your opinion is skewing the result of the comparison.

I don’t ‘know best’. But I do research, learn and sometimes experiment before I post my opinions. In this case I can state with total certainty that the mains cable has as much effect on the sound of the amp as the colour of the wallpaper in the room.

And I’m asking, again, what you do if the amps have hardwired power cables? Many do, although it’s becoming less common. Please answer this before telling me I’m wrong again.

Rocker

Sorry guys as it seems my comments on questioning the the guys methodology for the testing of an amp and it’s latest version has caused flames to be created by posters. I stand by my assertion that both amps should be ‘stood’ in the same place and the same cables used for the duration of the test. This way the only variable is the amps themselves. 

bbill335

steveledzep said:

When I first joined this forum, I have to say that I was pissed off with your condescending, holier than thou, I know best posts.  

wow

p90fool

Rocker said:

Sorry guys as it seems my comments on questioning the the guys methodology for the testing of an amp and it’s latest version has caused flames to be created by posters. I stand by my assertion that both amps should be ‘stood’ in the same place and the same cables used for the duration of the test. This way the only variable is the amps themselves. 

Well there's certainly no harm in it. 

Lebarque

p90fool said:

Rocker said:

Sorry guys as it seems my comments on questioning the the guys methodology for the testing of an amp and it’s latest version has caused flames to be created by posters. I stand by my assertion that both amps should be ‘stood’ in the same place and the same cables used for the duration of the test. This way the only variable is the amps themselves. 

Well there's certainly no hum in it. 

Fixed that for you

hywelg

steveledzep said:

ICBM said:

steveledzep said:

I understand what you're saying.  But...the wiring of the house and the national grid are constants.....the power cable to the amp is a variable if different leads are used.  I'm sure they'll make no difference, but in the interests of a scientific experiment, the leads must be the same for each amplifier.

Except that it makes no difference. None. Zero. Power cables cannot and do not affect the sound of the amp.

If anything, it’s actually fluctuations in the supply voltage - which do occur - that could make a detectable difference.

Anyway, what would you do if the amps had hardwired power cables?

You're missing my point.  You are arguing that different power supply cables will make no difference.  I'm inclined to agree, however.... You wouldn't have to argue your point if the same power supply cable is used for each amplifier.  It's eliminating variables.

No you are introducing the concept of a constant being a variable when it isn't. You are in effect giving credence to snake oil salesmen.  It would be more important to plug both of the amps through a voltage meter and make sure the mains were at the same voltage for both tests.  I could tell when my OTS was running at 230v compared with 238v. Audible difference

steveledzep

p90fool said:

steveledzep said:

When I first joined this forum, I have to say that I was pissed off with your condescending, holier than thou, I know best posts.  Since then, I have read with interest what you have to say and have accepted that you are a very knowledgeable guy.  In this instance, you are incorrect. To do an accurate comparison between two amplifiers you have to have the power supply identical in both instances.  I accept that there is likely to be minimal or no difference, that is not the point !  You assure me that there is no difference, I don't accept that.  Your opinion is skewing the result of the comparison.

You have the hi-fi buff's obsession with the last three feet of cable in the dozens of miles the power has travelled to get to your equipment, which, as someone who worked briefly for a well known snake oil company where I actually built £3k power cables I have some sympathy with despite knowing it's just silliness. 

I agree about the silliness, maybe you missed what I said earlier:  "I like my hifi too and the industry is obsessed with superior power supplies and snake oil quality cables.  I don't subscribe to the snake oil bit, but do agree that a power cable is important to the performance of the component being fed. "
The point I'm trying to make is that when comparing two items it is scientifically correct to standardise all ancillaries so that it is just the items under scrutiny.  As I have said, I accept that there is likely no difference, BUT using the same lead eliminates the question mark.
Best analogy I can think of is performance testing a similar specced VW Golf against a Ford Focus.  I think "petrolheads" would invalidate the result if it was discovered that one car used Texaco 95RON and the other used Shell 95RON.  The fuel may well have come from the same refinery even, BUT it is a difference that "could" have some influence on performance.
I see that @Rocker has come back to reiterate similar too.

steveledzep

bbill335 said:

steveledzep said:

When I first joined this forum, I have to say that I was pissed off with your condescending, holier than thou, I know best posts.  

wow

Clumsily written, but unfairly taken out of context.

steveledzep

ICBM said:

steveledzep said:

When I first joined this forum, I have to say that I was pissed off with your condescending, holier than thou, I know best posts.  Since then, I have read with interest what you have to say and have accepted that you are a very knowledgeable guy.  In this instance, you are incorrect. To do an accurate comparison between two amplifiers you have to have the power supply identical in both instances.  I accept that there is likely to be minimal or no difference, that is not the point !  You assure me that there is no difference, I don't accept that.  Your opinion is skewing the result of the comparison.

I don’t ‘know best’. But I do research, learn and sometimes experiment before I post my opinions. In this case I can state with total certainty that the mains cable has as much effect on the sound of the amp as the colour of the wallpaper in the room.

And I’m asking, again, what you do if the amps have hardwired power cables? Many do, although it’s becoming less common. Please answer this before telling me I’m wrong again.

My first sentence above was clumsily written, apologies if it caused offence, wasn't meant to.
I still maintain that for ideal side by side testing, potential (no pun intended) variables have to be eliminated.  I'm sure you'll have read my earlier reply to @p90fool .
With regard to hard wired amplifiers then that is a fixed component of that amplifier.  If the other amp has a kettle lead arrangement then it is important to use the supplied lead so that the amps are being compared "out of the box".

p90fool

My wall voltage fluctuates by 8-10 volts depending on time of day etc, which is far more significant a variable than the mains lead. 

ICBM

steveledzep said:

With regard to hard wired amplifiers then that is a fixed component of that amplifier.

Precisely. So you then can't compare the amps without including the possible difference between the mains cables... which is no different from comparing two amps with their own IEC power cables.

That isn't a problem, because there is NO DIFFERENCE.