Are modellers as good as amps?

professorben

soma1975 said:

Yep. Your confessed inability to understand something doesn't mean the thing doesn't exist. 

I don’t understand the projection that people are talking about. 

The fact that the thing you are so desperately clinging onto not existing outside of your head I understand perfectly. 

Roland

Gentlemen. You seem to be agreeing quite violently about the fact that all hear things differently. 

professorben

Roland said:

Gentlemen. You seem to be agreeing quite violently about the fact that all hear things differently. 

But but but they are agreeing wrong!!!!  

professorben

professorben said:

The shocking reality that members of the valve loving camp are using John Mayer as some kind of beacon of hope fills me with a despair I fear only Rum can drown.  

dindude said:

professorben said:

soma1975 said:

professorben said:

Its all in in your head mate

It's all in everyone's head. 

Once digital gear gives me what I get from my valve amp I'll happily swap. If it gives you want you want now then yey. 

Just like for work I swapped from film to digital imaging when the results I could get were as good (but different from) what I got from film. 

But to tell people they are wrong for wanting something else that you don't want from your kit is a bit irksome, and just because I or John Mayer might lack the language and vocabulary to express what we mean in a way that is universally and immediately understood and quantifiable does not mean that this 'thing' is a figment of our imagination. 

soma1975 said:

professorben said:

Its all in in your head mate

It's all in everyone's head. 

Once digital gear gives me what I get from my valve amp I'll happily swap. If it gives you want you want now then yey. 

Just like for work I swapped from film to digital imaging when the results I could get were as good (but different from) what I got from film. 

But to tell people they are wrong for wanting something else that you don't want from your kit, and just because I or John Mayer might lack the language and vocabulary to express what we mean in a way that is universally and immediately understood and quantifiable does not mean that this 'thing' is a figment of our imagination. 

I cannot understand this. 

Sorry but I just don’t. 

You play the string, the noise comes out the speaker. 

End of. 

See for me that statement shows a complete disrespect and dumbing down of what (great) guitar playing is - nothing to do with valve vs modellers.

It’s not disrespectful it’s factual. 
Great guitar  playing is frequencies, and rhythms, and voltages and soundwaves, it’s all measurable it’s all notateable it’s all numbers, and most of all it’s all subjective.

one persons great playing experience is another’s boring support band. 

And although yes I see the thread has wandered slightly, the point I’m trying to make, albeit prob poorly, is that the whole ‘feel’ and ‘vibe’ accusations that are routinely levelled at modelling gear, are nonsense because those aspects of music, do not exist in the real world, the only exist in peoples heads, which brings in observational bias, as demonstrated by the number of blind playing tests that people again and again seem to struggle with working out what’s a valve amp and what’s modelled.

WiresDreamDisasters

Someone hates surfing. lol.

p90fool

It's funny how the modelling advocate refuses to believe something we're trying to explain to him, and us "closed-minded" old farts are happily switching between valves and modellers depending on the circumstances, and have been for decades. 

It's nothing to do with "vibe" or other intangibles, it's about whether a piece of a equipment works fantastically for some things but not others. 

I will fail a blind test every time if someone else is playing, and pass it every time if I am. 

I've spent a fortune in a search for lightness and versatility over the last 20 years and had to give up trying to use it live every time. This is not the action of a Luddite old geezer who's imagining things, I still use amp sims almost exclusively in my studio and have racks of digital gear I wouldn't be without. 

This is one of those arguments which only happens online, if we were in the same room with the relevant gear everyone would understand perfectly what the other was driving at. 

soma1975

p90fool said:

I will fail a blind test every time if someone else is playing, and pass it every time if I am. 

This is precisely the point. 

Also anyone that says feel doesn't exist should not be playing a musical instrument. 

NelsonP

Well, I'm going to keep my modeller. And my amp. Cake and eat it.

One day my family may even let me play my valve amp at home

professorben

p90fool said:

It's funny how the modelling advocate refuses to believe something we're trying to explain to him, and us "closed-minded" old farts are happily switching between valves and modellers depending on the circumstances, and have been for decades. 

It's nothing to do with "vibe" or other intangibles, it's about whether a piece of a equipment works fantastically for some things but not others. 

I will fail a blind test every time if someone else is playing, and pass it every time if I am. 

I've spent a fortune in a search for lightness and versatility over the last 20 years and had to give up trying to use it live every time. This is not the action of a Luddite old geezer who's imagining things, I still use amp sims almost exclusively in my studio and have racks of digital gear I wouldn't be without. 

This is one of those arguments which only happens online, if we were in the same room with the relevant gear everyone would understand perfectly what the other was driving at. 

It like you are trying to explain to me the existence of a divine being and using a chemical reaction to prove the point. 
I understand you believe in something, but I see that that doesn’t exist, I’m happy that you can use different types of gear, and always have been, I’m not against valves and never have been, I personally think that they are obsolete now, but you can use them as much as you like my young fruit, however can we please stop making up stuff to justify that choice, just say “I prefer using a valve amp live, I like the sound” you don’t have to invent unmeasurable bullshit to justify not using digital gear, they both sound good, they both sound different, lets leave it at that.  
soma1975 said:

p90fool said:

I will fail a blind test every time if someone else is playing, and pass it every time if I am. 

This is precisely the point. 

Also anyone that says feel doesn't exist should not be playing a musical instrument. 

Easy to say online, hearing and playing are the same thing, yes I believe you would struggle to tell them apart in a blind test either hearing or playing, because playing is a one way activity, you play the note it comes out of the speaker, there’s no part of an amp that sends voltage back up the cable to your fingers (at least let’s hope not eh?)

And I don’t believe in ‘feel’ it’s not a thing, Tone, note choice, technique, rhythm, those are all real things, that when applied correctly (subjectively) they are often interpreted as ‘feel’ I’ve seen a hundred guitarists who obviously have the ‘feels’ (powerstance face grimace and commitment) that should never be allowed to play guitar ever again.

you show me a guitarist that has ‘feel’ and I’ll show you a guitarist employing 

Tone
Technique
Taste (note choice and rhythm) 

Its all teachable, repeatable and definable.

There is no God, no Magic, no Feel, no Mojo, only human interpretation of physical things, be that sound, shape, colour or movement, it’s all subjective, when I play my digital rig live and jump about and crowd is singing the words back at us, it’s epic, it’s loud, it’s exciting, watch that back on video the next day and it’s totally different, because it’s all being interpreted by my brain.

to say I should not be playing a musical instrument because I have rationalised the various concepts at work when we play or listen to music, is ridiculous and frankly a bit rude, maybe you should not ever cook, if you don’t ‘feel’ the process of cooking, never drive a car if you don’t ‘feel’ the road, never fill out a form if you don’t ‘feel’ the pen....

music is like all those activities. 

TTBZ

When people talk about feel in relation to modellers aren’t they on about how it responds to adjustments to the guitar and playing style? That’s what I mean when I say my Helix doesn’t feel as good as my real amp, it just doesn’t. Yeah it cleans up when the guitar volume is rolled down but it’s not the same, doesn’t retain the same dynamics or something. To be fair some valve amps are like this too but the majority aren’t.

@professorben that’s a weird way of looking at music. It’s an art, the whole point is to make you feel something or stir up an emotion isn’t it?

professorben

Look we’ve all taken a journey here, and gone waaaaaay off topic, I’ve set my stall out and barring any new evidence I’ve made up my mind, I’m happy to continue a fresh thread on the subject of feel and interpretation of music or tea making or whatever. 

Valves are as as good as Digital now, currently. 

Use whatever give you the best sound sound and inspires you to create the best music you can.

justify your choices with the use of pixie dust and unicorn snot all you like, or just live in the real world and understand everything is physics and chemistry. 

Either way I’m done on this one.

Cheers.  

soma1975

Being deliberately obtuse to misrepresent what other people have stated in order to simply further shout your fingers-in-ears monologue instead of actually engaging in conversation is all a bit embarrassing. It's clear already that listening critically is not your strongest point otherwise we wouldn't be debating this in the first place. 

Your 2008 atheist putdowns v1.0 are just cringeworthy in this context. Pixie dust FFS. Do adults actually talk like that? 

Edit: Summary. 

Man on internet say he doesn't understand something so lots of well meaning people try to break it down as best they can but man on internet decides instead of trying to get his head around a subject he doesn't understand clearly the subject must be voided and EVERYONE ELSE is wrong and only he has the truth and he refuses to accept or acknowledge any new information. 

And they are meant to be the Luddites. 

professorben

soma1975 said:

Being deliberately obtuse to misrepresent what other people have stated in order to simply further shout your fingers-in-ears monologue instead of actually engaging in conversation is all a bit embarrassing. It's clear already that listening critically is not your strongest point otherwise we wouldn't be debating this in the first place. 

Your 2008 atheist putdowns v1.0 are just cringeworthy in this context. Pixie dust FFS. Do adults actually talk like that? 

Edit: Summary. 

Man on internet say he doesn't understand something so lots of well meaning people try to break it down as best they can but man on internet decides instead of trying to get his head around a subject he doesn't understand clearly the subject must be voided and EVERYONE ELSE is wrong and only he has the truth and he refuses to accept or acknowledge any new information. 

And they are meant to be the Luddites. 

Actual lol at your butthurt. 

soma1975

Christ, you'll be telling people 'don't have a cow, dude' soon. 

p90fool

@professorben most of the people you're engaging with and telling them they're believing in fairy dust are experienced guitar players who actually own and use modellers. 

"Feel" is not magical thinking, it's just how something responds when you hit the strings in different ways. It IS science, it's just a slightly more complex interaction than simple velocity sensitivity on the "electric guitar" patch on a keyboard. 

I dunno, maybe you just leave your guitar on 10 and clang the strings the same way every time, I don't suppose it matters much given your listening ability. 

John_A

I think the word ‘feel’ is used in this context to describe the way an amp or modeller sounds in response to the way you play it.  I certainly agree that some modellers respond differently to playing than others, and that it’s a lot more obvious when playing than listening.  I bought a zoom g3n as a Helix backup ages ago, and that ‘felt’ very different to playing through an amp, the Helix, for me, ‘feels’ a lot like a good amp

Handsome_Chris

At least we haven't got on to the question of which piece of modelling equipment is best?  The correct answer is Axe-FX II.

NelsonP

This is from the manual of my valve amp:

"We've consciously made it feel "real spongy" so it helps your playing... even smoothes over your little mistakes! (Or as one good player said, "It makes my sloppiness sound like expressiveness… I love it!")".

Personally I do think there's a difference in feel between my amp and my modeller, but I'll be buggered if I have the language to describe it properly.

John_A

NelsonP said:

This is from the manual of my valve amp:

"We've consciously made it feel "real spongy" so it helps your playing... even smoothes over your little mistakes! (Or as one good player said, "It makes my sloppiness sound like expressiveness… I love it!")".

Spongy, is a characteristic of a valve rectifier something that a good modeller will reproduce well

John_A

Handsome_Chris said:

At least we haven't got on to the question of which piece of modelling equipment is best?  The correct answer is Axe-FX II.

Surely it’s axe III now?