Are modellers as good as amps?

Handsome_Chris

John_A said:

Handsome_Chris said:

At least we haven't got on to the question of which piece of modelling equipment is best?  The correct answer is Axe-FX II.

Surely it’s axe III now?

Too big.  A decent modeller should be no more than 2U. 

NelsonP

John_A said:

Handsome_Chris said:

At least we haven't got on to the question of which piece of modelling equipment is best?  The correct answer is Axe-FX II.

Surely it’s axe III now?

This one is easy. It's the Line 6 Amplifire Stage GT III.

The pitch block is still a bit iffy though.

p90fool

NelsonP said:

John_A said:

Handsome_Chris said:

At least we haven't got on to the question of which piece of modelling equipment is best?  The correct answer is Axe-FX II.

Surely it’s axe III now?

This one is easy. It's the Line 6 Amplifire Stage GT III.

The pitch block is still a bit iffy though.

Is that the toaster model with the kettle lead? 

AndyJP

Yes digital is as good as valve amps. Now somebody buy my kemper

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/165309/fs-kemper-toaster-unpowered-and-accessories

sweepy

This thread is getting near Peach R8 and R9 status

ICBM

valves4ever said:

The Valve Vs Solid State debate has been going on for a long time....I remember way back in the early 60’s when the first transistor amps appeared...Burns Orbit series for guitar and the Vox T60 for bass....they were not well received....

Ironically, the T60 sounds wonderful - but was underpowered for its supposed power output compared to valve amps (still a recurring problem that has never been completely solved) and horrifically unreliable (which has) - it was mainly the second which killed it commercially.

I know someone who has a '63 T60 which has never blown up - it still has its original power transistors - and it sounds amazing at low to medium volume, really just like a clean Vox valve amp. I didn't dare push it hard.

professorben

soma1975 said:

Christ, you'll be telling people 'don't have a cow, dude' soon. 

It was 52/48 between them I admit. 

dindude

This I think is just a taste thing. It’s striking for me that you reference Satriani several times, I used to listen to him a lot in my past but cannot can really stomach him now, very binary playing, very undynamic, you could replicate much of his melodies on a bontempi keyboard, note choice is nice but very on/off - compare to what I consider touch players, that would be Jeff Beck or John Mayer and you couldn’t do the same, they twist and turn each note with very subtle nuances. 

darthed1981

I think we must all remember in here that modellers and valves are both equalled by a Harley Benton with a pup swap...

professorben

dindude said:

This I think is just a taste thing. It’s striking for me that you reference Satriani several times, I used to listen to him a lot in my past but cannot can really stomach him now, very binary playing, very undynamic, you could replicate much of his melodies on a bontempi keyboard, note choice is nice but very on/off - compare to what I consider touch players, that would be Jeff Beck or John Mayer and you couldn’t do the same, they twist and turn each note with very subtle nuances. 

John Mayer?!?!

are you shitting me? They guy is beige in human form, I have a John Mayer album, I bought it after hearing all the hype, it’s dull as ditchwater, recycled SRV licks without the interest, if Jeff Beck ( Who I love btw, was listening to Guitar Shop just last week, amazing) is a great real ale then John Mayer is Becks Blue.  

TTBZ

Out of interest I just tried plugging my amp (Jubilee) into the Helix from the FX send to use the stomp as an IR loader. Not exactly a fair comparison since I’m only using the preamp of the amp, and also the EQ doesn’t seem to work for some reason (must be post FX send?) but compared to my presets in the Stomp I actually didn’t like the real amp as much - just felt a bit dull and surprisingly didn’t clean up as well as the Helix model. It’s been a while since I actually played the amp and I guess I thought it was more responsive than it is! 

Want to repeat this with a reactive load to get the power amp and EQ involved so I can get a fair comparison though. 

soma1975

Isn't the nature of a Jubilee preamp with diode clipping very different from that of a regular valve amp?

Not actually played one but I wouldn't have expected clean up in quite the same way.

TTBZ

Yeah the lead channel has some diodes in it but I thought it was better than it is. Still has preamp valves as well. It still sounds beasty turned up properly and cleans up well enough for me but the preamp into IR was pretty underwhelming - was just surprised at how well the digital models responded to the guitar adjustments actually. Made me reconsider if it’s worth the hassle of a load box for playing quietly at home. Probably not as the tone wasn’t really any better than my presets, though didn’t seem to have that slightly annoying fatiguing frequency or overtone that seems to be present in modelled tones.

the next test when I get the house to myself is compare the real preamp to the digital ones run into the fx return

prowla

I have a Markbass EVO; it's good, but I wouldn't put it up against a real Ampeg stack, or a Sunn, or a ...etc.

However, my back prefers it and the rig will fit in the boot of my car.

lysander

lysander said:

Playing through headphones is all about setting up the right reverb to get the “air of the room” type of feel.
I don’t know if the helix reverbs are good enough for this, I do this with high quality algo reverbs on my pc and it took me a while to get it right.
The canopener VST from goodhertz helps too.

@TTBZ Having now tested it on my HX stomp, I have to say that the reverbs are fine as effects but absolutely suck at creating a realistic room ambiance, so playing the helix direct through headphones is unfortunately always going to sound bad IMO.

I’d either run it through a PC with a good interface and reverb VST, or get an effect unit with high end room verbs and a headphone out.

lysander

@TTBZ I’m going to have to correct myself here, first I hadn’t realised there was a straight room verb in the ‘legacy’ tab, which while not mind blowing, can do the job for headphones especially when combined with a bit of subtle delay.

But also, I had tried with Sony 7506 which are terrible for this ( tbh I’m not sure they’re good for anything - I had forgotten how brittle they are ).
With Beyerdymics DT990 pro and the above I think a lot of the models sound awesome with minimal tweaking.

Clarky

professorben said:

soma1975 said:

Yes they are completely viable options, depending on what you priorities are. I don't think anyone has ever disputed that. 

It's more that people saying they are indistinguishable from the valve amp they are modelling where the argument comes up. 

Ah ok so I never said they copy/replicate /imitate the amps they are named after exactly. 

But then neither do two JCM800’s...
they sound similar, slightly different, in exactly the same way a Strat may play or sound a little different from ones either side of it on the production line. 

Satriani said that each take he records “Is a variation on a somewhat generalised theme” 
So it’s hard to pin down exactly how ‘accurate’ the models are without owning that exact amp, plus I’ve never played a Friedman but it doesn’t stop me from loving the whole experience from pick strike to soaring feedback of using that amp model live. 

It just bugs me ( I know it shouldn’t but it does) that Valve gear is seen as romantic or soulful and Digital gear isn’t, even the term Digital conjures up connonations of cold calculated detachment.  
Both get the same voltage from the wall, both get the same signal from the guitar, to say there is some type of mystical reciprocal relationship in one type of tech but not the other is just bollocks. 

Its all in in your head mate, and that’s cool, if it helps you make great ( or let’s be honest mostly bland) music (me included) so much the better. 

Humans are soulful creative spiritual things.

Boxes of bolts and and bottles and chips and diodes are not. 

interestingly... when you're recording and make a little booboo within what is a largely good take and decide to punch-in to correct it.. even then I've found I've had to make a couple of attempts.. but not because the notes I was replacing were wrong, but because the tone wasn't close enough to the original..
that's through the same kit setup the same way..
so there are differences in how you happen to make the strings sound at that moment..

Clarky

I think it's worth pointing out here that on more than one occasion I've have the sound guy compliment me on my tone when I've been the only guy at a festival with a modeller [through a pair of 4x12 cabs]..

I'm not suggesting that one thing is better than another..
just that a high end modeller is not a dreadful thing to walk on stage with..

WiresDreamDisasters

When we release this next album and hopefully fly out to play some EU dates here and there, I will be thinking heavily about Kemper Stage and Seymour Duncan Powerstage 170 as a combo. Run some profiles that can go direct to FOH at the same time as going to whatever cabs are being provided.

Modellers are great. They solve a problem. I've been playing modellers longer than I've been playing valve amps, all the way back to being 18 years old with a PodXTLive.

But I'm not giving up my amps. Not because of any Valve VS modeller battles, and not because of "valve" mystique. But the particular amps I've settled on over the years (settled in air quotes!) really do it for me ergonomically, tonally, flexibility-wise, and aesthetically. All of these things are valid.

At the end of the day it's whether your music is any good or not. I've heard great music made with modellers, and I've heard shit music made with the most expensive valve amps known to man.

They're all tools, yet they all have their own character and points of interest that make you want to use them.

Clarky

WiresDreamDisasters said:

When we release this next album and hopefully fly out to play some EU dates here and there, I will be thinking heavily about Kemper Stage and Seymour Duncan Powerstage 170 as a combo. Run some profiles that can go direct to FOH at the same time as going to whatever cabs are being provided.

Modellers are great. They solve a problem. I've been playing modellers longer than I've been playing valve amps, all the way back to being 18 years old with a PodXTLive.

But I'm not giving up my amps. Not because of any Valve VS modeller battles, and not because of "valve" mystique. But the particular amps I've settled on over the years (settled in air quotes!) really do it for me ergonomically, tonally, flexibility-wise, and aesthetically. All of these things are valid.

At the end of the day it's whether your music is any good or not. I've heard great music made with modellers, and I've heard shit music made with the most expensive valve amps known to man.

They're all tools, yet they all have their own character and points of interest that make you want to use them.

totally agree with this..
once you've created your own 'voice', it's less about what and how, and more about that it sounds, feels and works right for you..