Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb (And Twin) Review

stickyfiddle

@Danny1969 Decent picture of the guts here. Standard "ICEpower" class D power amp, apparently. I'm not sure if that's good or bad! 

https://www.reddit.com/r/GuitarAmps/comments/fiqva6/inside_of_a_fender_tone_master_deluxe_reverb/

Danny1969

stickyfiddle said:

@Danny1969 Decent picture of the guts here. Standard "ICEpower" class D power amp, apparently. I'm not sure if that's good or bad! 

https://www.reddit.com/r/GuitarAmps/comments/fiqva6/inside_of_a_fender_tone_master_deluxe_reverb/

Well the SMPS is on a different board to the power amp so that's good. If they provide both boards as service parts then repairing the amps will be simple ...the SMPS looks pretty easy to re cap too that's a bonus

stickyfiddle

Yeah. I can't speak for circuit design but the engineering choices seem sensible with a view to making future servicing relatively simple. I would assume the Twin version uses the same main PCB with slightly different software with a bigger power amp and a couple of extra knobs on the other pcb. 

ICBM

It's at least modular and doesn't have things like jacks mounted on the power output PCB which would restrict the physical layout, so in theory it would be possible to shoehorn a different power supply or power output module into there if spares of the correct ones become unobtainable... *provided* that they haven't done anything like making some of the functionality of them integrated with the preamp or with each other - although it's slightly worrying that the speaker connection appears to come off the power supply board and not the power amp, hopefully that's just for 'star grounding' considerations.

My hope would be that the range is so successful that they use the same modules across a wide range of retro-inspired amps and so the product line has a life cycle in decades rather than just years, so the correct boards (or upgraded ones, even) will be available for a very long time.

What's the cutout above the XLR socket for, by the way - is there something mounted to the cabinet there? Seems an odd thing to have.

Blueingreen

Danny1969 said:

It's a good idea but seems a bit expensive. For that kind of price I would just buy a used valve amp. 

My valve amps never leave the house because my Quilter sounds every bit as good or better and weighs half as much.

I'm tempted by the Tone Master for a different flavour.

A used valve amp on the other hand would be no use to me whatsoever.

HandwrittenHero

TINMAN82 said:

HandwrittenHero said:

tone1 said:

Haz478 said:

Yup blonde deluxe. Really like it. Some might be able to tell the difference between this and the valve version, but I can’t. Great for home use. 

I really didn’t want to hear the ‘great for home use’ ...it does look the part too! 

Yep, home use is good. Mine’s cranked to overdrive with the attenuator on the back flicked all the way down to 0.2 and it sounds good at a reasonable volume for me.

Goes without saying it’s nicer without the muzzle on, but that’s every amp with an attenuator tbh. 

It’s not really an attenuator though is it? It’s a stepped master volume on a solid state amp designed to give the impression of the sort of attenuator you find on some modern tube amps.  That’s not a criticism btw, I’m sure it sounds great and improves the sweep of the front panel volume at each step.

Perhaps it sounds better with the volume up because it’s louder.

Yep, I did consider putting attenuator in air quotes since it’s what they call it.

Louder and moving air are why it sounds better at volume as well as it getting stuff moving speaker wise.

It does it’s job anyway, I get a nice bit of grit out of it without making enemies or can rattle the windows when everyone is out nearby. It was just a case of being completely transparent that the volume step thing isn’t a magic bullet but a useful tool. It makes the type of amp playable for me since I don’t personally do clean pedal platform but am currently playing 100% of the time in an end terrace house.

Danny1969

The only thing I do see which could well cause problems are those ZIF clamp down connectors. These were invented for the laptop industry, first used in Sony Vaio's  and are used for board to board connections like USB sub boards and palm rest connectors. They are cheap and offer a high density contact config in a small package but they were never meant to be used in something that vibrates a lot  ... like an amp would at high volume. They also don't cope with any moisture at all.  There's not a lot of force at all clamping the cable and a loss of signal here might well cause the DSP to hang, go back to default or literally anything really. These are the white flat cables, there's 3 cables so 6 of these connectors in use here. 
Time will tell though, I expect they tested these amps for hours on end but did they test how well the amp fares when left in a van overnight between gigs  ?

Wazmeister

All valid points here, but it is interesting how we begin to look at potential failure points of these digital amps (which are relatively dirt cheap)... yet there is more chance of a valve amp dropping a valve live...

I had two separate valve amps ‘go down’ on me mid-gig last year. In both cases, a Kemper and a SD170 saved the day.

Just sayin’...

Jonathangus

Danny1969 said:

Time will tell though, I expect they tested these amps for hours on end but did they test how well the amp fares when left in a van overnight between gigs  ?

Then it becomes the problem of the guy who bought it off the guy who nicked it.

RickLucas

Jonathangus said:

Danny1969 said:

Time will tell though, I expect they tested these amps for hours on end but did they test how well the amp fares when left in a van overnight between gigs  ?

Then it becomes the problem of the guy who bought it off the guy who nicked it.

Never leave your amp where you wouldn't sleep.

Danny1969

RickLucas said:

Jonathangus said:

Danny1969 said:

Time will tell though, I expect they tested these amps for hours on end but did they test how well the amp fares when left in a van overnight between gigs  ?

Then it becomes the problem of the guy who bought it off the guy who nicked it.

Never leave your amp where you wouldn't sleep.

My giging amps have lived in the band vans for the last 25 years, along with all the PA, mics and everything else. If you only gig once a month or so then carrying it in to the house after the gig is an option but when your quite busy and have a lot of gear it's just not practical. 
Our vans on my drive though, if I had to park on the street I would think twice 

Haz478

Luckily, I only play to the dog, so transport and storage shouldn’t be an issue. 

Mind you, she’s quite a critical audience. Above one Watt she will disappear in general disgust. 

Interesting to hear about the design though, I also hope it is a long lived format. 

My tv still works with a twisty knob to tune in the 3 channels.........(I may have exaggerated a bit there). 

Barquentine

How do these amps compare to the emulations of the same amps provided by other modelers ?

menamestom

Wazmeister said:

All valid points here, but it is interesting how we begin to look at potential failure points of these digital amps (which are relatively dirt cheap)... yet there is more chance of a valve amp dropping a valve live...

I had two separate valve amps ‘go down’ on me mid-gig last year. In both cases, a Kemper and a SD170 saved the day.

Just sayin’...

Well these aren't that cheap so do ask the comparison to be drawn.

The valve amp if well designed, handwired turret or even decent PCB could in theory be serviced indefinitely so at least it might be back on at the next gig, whereas something like this may not be able to be rescued.  I guess I just like to see longevity and guaranteed serviceability in things.  Fender are going in the right direction with the design, sound, cab quality etc and it’s nice to see digital being elevated in quality but it’s fair to consider whether they could be repaired.   Valves are after all user changeable and it plentiful supply.

That said, I could see myself having one of these and just getting on with it, they could well last for many years and if Fender provide replacement parts all the better.

Wazmeister

menamestom said:

Wazmeister said:

All valid points here, but it is interesting how we begin to look at potential failure points of these digital amps (which are relatively dirt cheap)... yet there is more chance of a valve amp dropping a valve live...

I had two separate valve amps ‘go down’ on me mid-gig last year. In both cases, a Kemper and a SD170 saved the day.

Just sayin’...

Well these aren't that cheap so do ask the comparison to be drawn.

The valve amp if well designed, handwired turret or even decent PCB could in theory be serviced indefinitely so at least it might be back on at the next gig, whereas something like this may not be able to be rescued.  I guess I just like to see longevity and guaranteed serviceability in things.  Fender are going in the right direction with the design, sound, cab quality etc and it’s nice to see digital being elevated in quality but it’s fair to consider whether they could be repaired.   Valves are after all user changeable and it plentiful supply.

That said, I could see myself having one of these and just getting on with it, they could well last for many years and if Fender provide replacement parts all the better.

As I said before, some fair points.

Price wise imho these are very cheap. My main giiging/rehearsal amp is a Matchless Nighthawk, so we are looking at £799 vs £2800. 

Post gig repairs are relatively easy, but my point was during a gig. 

For me, the weight issue is a huge one, and the TM is a welcome relief. I think modellers are getting there, and this is first time ive really felt ‘comfortable’ with the looks as well.

Sound wise, I a/b this against a ‘real’ DR and they were virtually indistinguishable.

As for the longevity, we shall see... 

menamestom

Wazmeister said:

menamestom said:

Wazmeister said:

Price wise imho these are very cheap. My main giiging/rehearsal amp is a Matchless Nighthawk, so we are looking at £799 vs £2800. 

Well yes when you put it like that.  I'm probably comparing Apples to Oranges, a handwired Deluxe Reverb would be more than double the price.

ICBM

A valve amp is repairable at a gig if it’s properly designed and well enough built - if all the other components are sufficiently high-rated and it’s fused properly, it will only ever blow a valve and a fuse, and you can carry spares of those and have it running again in five minutes or less. You do need a fairly expensive amp for that to be completely true because that kind of quality costs money, but it can be done and will remain so for at least twenty or thirty years until you might want to replace the electrolytic caps as a safety precaution.

A solid-state amp failure will always be a workshop job - although if designed and built well enough, the likelihood of failure is vanishingly small. The problem is that most are built down to a budget so that isn’t quite true - although it’s remarkable how close some get even when they don’t cost a fortune. (Older US-made Peaveys, for example.)

These Fenders look like they’re somewhere in the middle - they’re fairly well-made, should be reliable in the short term, will be serviceable easily if replacement boards are available (although I wouldn’t try at a gig), but I suspect they may not be entirely reliable in the long term.

I’ve gigged valve amps with no backup other than valves and fuses and only had to fix one on stage once, but I’m quite fussy about amp quality! I’ve had provided backline fail more than once, but they were amps I wouldn’t own myself exactly because I don’t trust them. I wouldn’t hesitate to gig a decent solid-state amp with no backup, and until proven otherwise I would with these Fenders at least for the first few years - the risk in the longer term will be the power supply caps as Danny says.

(No backup means no backup *amp*, by the way... I always take some sort of pedal/preamp that can be plugged into the PA or any available spare amp of any type.)

brooom

As @ICBM mentions, usually if you have a failure of a tube amp during a gig, it will either be something so simple, you can fix it during the gig (been there, done that). Or if the issue is complex enough that you can't fix it, there's a good likelyhood the amp wasn't reliable enough in the first place, this would be the kind of failure you could also see in a solid state technology amplifier.

I really like what fender is doing with the tonemaster amps, they look great, sound great and are lightweight and cheaper. With that said, they're not for me. For light and loud, I can always carry a souped up princeton reverb and it will be well built enough to be resilient and I can address issues myself (or finding a decent tech).

I've only ever had one amp fail on me mid way though a gig. That was my 1968 pro reverb. One of the power tubes stopped working. The amp kept on playing (just with loads of overdrive), it wasn't even unpleasant in the mix, just a bit strange. After the song finished I noticed the faulty tube and swapped it (no biasing on the fly or anything). It made it through the gig with decent tone. Try doing that with a faulty tonemaster amp.

Wazmeister

It’s a strange argument, imho...

Like not buying a car Cos the electric windows might go wrong (quote from my Dad).

well done those who change valves mid gig ! Screwing the back of the amp back off etc in the dark

The punters at the Coseley ex serviceman’s club wouldn’t be too patient !!!

Unless of course, the bingo was about to start... nothing is more sacred than their bingo !!

To summarise, an interesting cheaper concept that seems to work thus far, is a Nobel back up to my real amps, looks good, sounds great and I can carry up the stairs easily...

And for the first time, I really like the look and UI of this Fender amp

brooom

If you're happy with it, I guess that's what matters. My point or "argument" as you called it, was that I don't find it more reliable than a well built, healthy tube amp, and you can definitely get a great sounding lightweight tube amp these days.

I find this kind of technology is put to much better use when it actually brings something new to the table... which is not the case with the tonemasters. But then again it's great to have the options.