Timing

poopot

Fwiw, I bought 3 of these last week for a project... really good mics for the money.... sounds clear for vocals and good for guitars! Unless your spending a couple of hundred quid or more you can’t beat them... plus they come with a shock mount!!!!

45 quid each!!!!!

https://www.marantzpro.com/products/view/mpm-1000

hotpickups

poopot said:

Fwiw, I bought 3 of these last week for a project... really good mics for the money.... sounds clear for vocals and good for guitars! Unless your spending a couple of hundred quid or more you can’t beat them... plus they come with a shock mount!!!!

45 quid each!!!!!

https://www.marantzpro.com/products/view/mpm-1000

Cool that seems good value for money if it includes the mount too. Where did you buy yours from @poopot ? I take it that would work with my 48v phantom power button on my Focusrite ?

poopot

Grabbed mine from guitar guitar as it was quick. 

And yes it’ll work with your interface.

hotpickups

poopot said:

Grabbed mine from guitar guitar as it was quick. 

And yes it’ll work with your interface.

Thanks. I’ll get one. Thanks again 

Roland

digitalkettle said:

You realise your beautiful, organic tempos will be unpalatable to those who live on a diet of ultra-gridded commercial music ...

I disliked 80s music because it was dead on pitch. Not the songs, just the monotony of the synth tuning. I have a similar dislike for constant tempo music. Maybe that’s because I remember a time where the drummer used to speed up to add energy to the chorus. 

digitalkettle

Roland said:

digitalkettle said:

You realise your beautiful, organic tempos will be unpalatable to those who live on a diet of ultra-gridded commercial music ...

I disliked 80s music because it was dead on pitch. Not the songs, just the monotony of the synth tuning. I have a similar dislike for constant tempo music. Maybe that’s because I remember a time where the drummer used to speed up to add energy to the chorus. 

Yeah, obviously my post was a tad ironic and there's a time and a place for everything, e.g. if I'm working with music on, I like something predictable that I know well...something like Underworld works for me!
The OP coincided with some thoughts I'd had about human timing becoming a thing of the past...partly due to modern commercial production preferences and partly due to hobbyists playing in isolation to static clicks (lots of exceptions to this, of course).

I don't listen to modern pop really (I feel old just saying that) but, every now and then, an incredible track jumps out...you know, a rare one with more than four diatonic chords...but it will be tight to the grid, written by committee, and auto-tuned to the max.

I think obvious, Glee-level, auto-tuning is the most annoying sound for me...much like the emergence of sequencers bothering you in the 80s

thecolourbox

I've been working on an arrangement of Black Hole Sun by Soundgarden of late, and that's been a pain in the arse timing wise. I was learning it on Acoustic or clean electric with no other accompaniment in order to pitch it and work on my vocal phrasing etc, you know the kind of thing. Sounded nice but I was kind of conscious I was pulling the timing around all over the place (not sure what the prior word for that is in pop music? Rubato in classical).

Found a midi file of the original song which I often find useful to map out sections of songs etc and to use as a basic clear backing to record along to and the creator of that file has really done a very detailed job on the tempo track which has thrown me off completely haha think the verses are actually quicker than the choruses until the last repeats of the chorus. Also in learning the song by ear I hadn't even noticed that there were changes in time sig, extra little bars of 2/4 and sections in 9/8 which I didn't even twig were there as they flow so well.

I've found I was slowing down a lot more on the drop D barre chords because I'm rubbish at them, which sounded fine and part of the performance whilst playing solo but soon as your have to try and recreate that in a tempo track it's a bit of a nightmare!

Also, I chopped out a bit in the middle and the end where there were too many repetitions for what I'd want, that screwed up the tempo track and netrono e as well so had to go through it a lot haha

I do find a lot of recordings of songs are faster and more rigid than you'd perform them live really, but I suppose that is just me noticing the difference between strict timing and my "whatever the pop word for rubato is" style playing!

I'm not really experienced at playing alongside others though so this might all just be a consequence of that

WiresDreamDisasters

poopot said:

hotpickups said:

Yeah that’s what I’m hearing on my track with the click. Annoyed the hell out of my OCD but as you say with that click off and in context of a song one wouldn’t notice that much. I’m just super critical of my own stuff so maybe too attached for my own good  

Uploaded one without the click... You cant hear the tempo change...

https://soundcloud.com/thefretboard/sets/drumtest

Dont get hung up on it imo...

I can hear where he goes from the ride section to the hihat section, there is a very subtle change, but I quite like it.

PolarityMan

It all depends on the drummer quality. If the drummer isn't shit hit then a click is going to really improve things and you can reconnect the feel by automating the tempo changes.

I'd say the clicks for maybe 1 in 4 of our songs have tempo maps although they pretty much all have time Sig maps by necisity.

You do have to get the changes right though, stuff like a gradual slowdown for an ending is much better just coming off click for that but.

Slot also depends on the context. I've put together 3 covers recently.

Mantra by BMTH is very clearly gridded but sounds great and stil has tons of groove.

Curl of the Burl by mastadon, very clearly not gridded and not even that tight in aces but the energy from Brann Daillor really drives the song. We recorded our version to a click though.

Stranded by gojira, tight as fucking balls but surprisingly not to a click. Again we opted to use a click for our rendition.

Obviously mantra would be impossible to run the production elements without the click but gojira surprised me.

thegummy

Tracks that weren't recorded to a click will definitely vary. So anything before the move to computers really.

A lot of people feel that this natural sway in tempo improves the feel of a track. I personally don't think it does if the band are trying to stay in time but just can't because they're human.

If the tempo changes are deliberate and part of the music then that's different and, as has been pointed out, can be programmed in to the click.

I once read a study in to the idea that slight variations in timing perfection improves the feel of the groove and the result was that the participants found the more perfect pieces to have more groove to them, so the opposite of what a lot of people think.

Just to clarify again - this is variations that are accidental when players are trying to play perfectly in time but just can't, it's not talking about deliberate variations in timing like the bass pushing ahead or that kind of thing.

TheBigDipper

I like it when bands play together without hearing a click and just listen. Yes, the band will vary the tempo between (say) 119.25bpm and 120.75bpm, but a well-drilled band will all do it together as they subconsciously listen to each other playing their parts and hear it as a band, not a vehicle for their own notes. 

Playing exactly to a fixed, unvarying tempo is not an objective for the sort of music I like to play or listen to. Being locked in with your band members is. I appreciate that's not the case for all popular music genres, mind. 

I don't think the drummer is responsible for keeping time. It's everyones job to keep time to the music in a way that is sympathetic to the piece and performance.

PolarityMan

thegummy said:

Tracks that weren't recorded to a click will definitely vary. So anything before the move to computers really.

A lot of people feel that this natural sway in tempo improves the feel of a track. I personally don't think it does if the band are trying to stay in time but just can't because they're human.

If the tempo changes are deliberate and part of the music then that's different and, as has been pointed out, can be programmed in to the click.

I once read a study in to the idea that slight variations in timing perfection improves the feel of the groove and the result was that the participants found the more perfect pieces to have more groove to them, so the opposite of what a lot of people think.

Just to clarify again - this is variations that are accidental when players are trying to play perfectly in time but just can't, it's not talking about deliberate variations in timing like the bass pushing ahead or that kind of thing.

I think theres a difference between micro and macro changes as well. so a human drummer doesnt just paly randoml;y around the click, they will typically play with some element of swing so the 1 and 3 stays anchored pretty close to the click and the weaker beats are not equidistant to each other in time. 

Similarly depending on the feel a drummer might push the snare slightly ahead or before the click but it will be done in a consistent way and its totally possible to play this way to a click.

From a micro-timing perspective what never sounds good, but is actually quite common is the random rushed or dragged beat, it often happens either right before or right after a fill and that kind of thing doesn't add anything to the performance. 

The idea that you slow down or speed up for different sections is more a macro timing thing and the micro timing should be consistent within the change. I think people by and large do this fairly instinctively but its common for bands to play faster and faster so by the end of the song the difference is substantial For this kind of thing its a bit of a ballache but a tempo track can help.

PolarityMan

TheBigDipper said:

I like it when bands play together without hearing a click and just listen. Yes, the band will vary the tempo between (say) 119.25bpm and 120.75bpm, but a well-drilled band will all do it together as they subconsciously listen to each other playing their parts and hear it as a band, not a vehicle for their own notes. 

Well that's just it...everyone thinks their band is good enough but the sad reality is the most people actually aren't and the reason a lot of drummers a re so resistent to playing with a click is because they have really shitty timing. 

TheBigDipper

PolarityMan said:

TheBigDipper said:

I like it when bands play together without hearing a click and just listen. Yes, the band will vary the tempo between (say) 119.25bpm and 120.75bpm, but a well-drilled band will all do it together as they subconsciously listen to each other playing their parts and hear it as a band, not a vehicle for their own notes. 

Well that's just it...everyone thinks their band is good enough but the sad reality is the most people actually aren't and the reason a lot of drummers a re so resistent to playing with a click is because they have really shitty timing. 

I know. And I'm not saying I'm perfect, either. I've found myself playing with a band and thinking it's great and then listen back to the recording and realise our "togetherness" is all over the place. Sometimes, though, it really is great. :-) 

I like practicing to a click or a metronome, but I don't care if my performances drift a bit in a musical or human way. As long as it sounds good. 

WiresDreamDisasters

We're in the business of creating illusions. 

WiresDreamDisasters

Deeeep maaannn!

PolarityMan

TheBigDipper said:

PolarityMan said:

TheBigDipper said:

I like it when bands play together without hearing a click and just listen. Yes, the band will vary the tempo between (say) 119.25bpm and 120.75bpm, but a well-drilled band will all do it together as they subconsciously listen to each other playing their parts and hear it as a band, not a vehicle for their own notes. 

Well that's just it...everyone thinks their band is good enough but the sad reality is the most people actually aren't and the reason a lot of drummers a re so resistent to playing with a click is because they have really shitty timing. 

I know. And I'm not saying I'm perfect, either. I've found myself playing with a band and thinking it's great and then listen back to the recording and realise our "togetherness" is all over the place. Sometimes, though, it really is great. :-) 

I like practicing to a click or a metronome, but I don't care if my performances drift a bit in a musical or human way. As long as it sounds good. 

There's def a feeling when you get all locked in with each other all organically that I kinda dont find with a click.