It's the age old question - my solos suck! How do I improve?

axisus

Well, maybe they don't entirely suck, but the problem that I seem to have is that I play the same old things all the time, they just sound a bit different in different keys, at different tempos and with different song styles.

I marvel at albums, how the guitarists seem to come up with new things all the time, different and varied guitar solos. I'm majorly stuck in a rut. Considering the limited amount of notes to choose from, how are they so inventive???

OK, so my knowledge is very poor. I basically only use one scale, work out what key fits with a song/backing track etc and noodle around a bit, trying to keep a bit melodic rather than random. So what scale? er ..... as I said, poor theory knowledge, I think it's the mixolydian scale, but with the blue note from the blues scale added.

I'm an old dog so new tricks are a bit beyond me, but I'm sure there must be something I could do to get more inventive. I certainly can't analyse music to know what chords are being played, so all that mad modes stuff is a non-starter. Maybe I could post a short video of my usual sort of thing if anyone wants to tell me what I could try different? Not sure I want to expose my amateur playing to you lot mind you!

Any thoughts??

phil_b

Practice

Danny1969

Yeah post a video, that would help see the type of thing you generally do and might be offer something specific to your solo. 

A great ear or a little bit of music theory goes a long way, if you know what notes are in a chord you are playing over you can target certain notes in your solo that will compliment that chord and thus play to the changes rather than just stay in key. I'm not a theory expert but I know enough to use certain little tricks to make my playing more melodic than it was before I learnt some theory. 

This video I did explains one very simple trick 

BahHumbug

I can sympathise with the OP.  My problem is that my live improvisation skills are underdeveloped and I always end up doing the same old pentatonic noodling, which really pisses me off.  I can do an OK solo, so long as I have the time to 'compose' one.
The rut that I'm in sounds like a similar one to the OP, in that I always noodle in a scale pattern that my fingers are particularly familiar with.
When I have time to 'compose' a solo I try to think of anything that isn't my usual scale pattern.  I almost have a ticklist of things to try.
I usually go for double stops first - in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, sometimes 7ths.  Can I make licks based around any of these.  What about double stops in which one note is bent against another unbent note - 'country style'.
Can I incorporate some arpeggios (difficult as my picking technique isn't that good for arps, but always worth a try).
What about incorporating chords in amongst single note stuff.
How about repetition..rather than rattling up and down the scale, what about repetition of a few choice notes.  Or even one note.  There are several ways that a single note can be articulated - simple fretted, picked note, slide up, slide down, bent up, pre-bend and release, hammered on etc.  A single note or phrase can be repeated with changing rhythm.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that its easy to get stuck in a scale pattern and the way out is try and think of any aspect of music generally other than the scale pattern.

Vibetronic

Mate, you can already play really well - and don't say it's too late to learn new stuff, it *never* is. Theory can help - some new shapes to add to the one you know (I suspect you may actually know others even if you don't think you do), plus what's in the chord you're playing over, notes to aim for etc & little tricks like Danny says about above. A lot of what makes other people sound inventive is actually just hours and hours of practice trying to come up with new stuff/licks - for example I spent about 2 hours on Friday trying to complete a new tapping lick around Em pentatonic. It should be simple, but I'm trying to make it so it loops round and round - so it may take a few more weeks to perfect. It's vastly annoying, but perseverance is the key. If you can post videos with what you don't like in your playing that might help - but don't put yourself down so much either!!  

Roland

axisus said:

I'm an old dog so new tricks are a bit beyond me, ...

You’re in a rut. You keep repeating what is familiar to your fingers. You need to add some new ideas to your playing. 

An easy way is to learn something new. Pick a song and learn the solo, watch how the original guitarist played it live, and try out alternative fingerings.

Old dog, new tricks is bollocks by the way.

PolarityMan

wah

ToneControl

one trick is to learn to play the vocal lines, and then work around those

helps with developing phrasing and melodic thinking

Vibetronic

axisus said:

I'm an old dog so new tricks are a bit beyond me, but I'm sure there must be something I could do to get more inventive. I certainly can't analyse music to know what chords are being played, so all that mad modes stuff is a non-starter. Maybe I could post a short video of my usual sort of thing if anyone wants to tell me what I could try different? Not sure I want to expose my amateur playing to you lot mind you!

Any thoughts??

ps - modes stuff seems really complicated, but it doesn't have to be. I sort of think of it as a map of the guitar. One way to 'hear' it easily is to record a simple backing in G major - just strumming an open G chord will do. Then play the 4th mode of G - which is C Lydian over the top (C Lydian being C, D, E, F#, G, A, B, C - so basically C major but with a sharp 4th as it's in G major and using the notes of G major). Played over G, it won't really sound any different to the G major scale. But change the backing to C, dropping the 5th to F# now and again (you can just chug on a C5 chord and drop that 5th every 2 bars), and that C Lydian will sound really different - not like G major anymore, despite it using all the notes from the G major scale...particularly when you hit that F#. Hope that makes sense!

octatonic

You get good at what you practice.
You get good at soloing by making it your priority for a period of time- maybe a year or so.
It will not happen by accident, you need a plan that you will follow through with.

If you want I can design a 30 min practice routine that you can use.
You’ll need to follow, at a minimum, 6 days a week to see the results.

Old dog is nonsense, I am always learning new stuff. 

I learn better than I ever did because I’m focussed.

bloodandtears

buy the remaining two dvds ;-) they focus exactly on this...

paulcaye

Roland said:

axisus said:

I'm an old dog so new tricks are a bit beyond me, ...

You’re in a rut. You keep repeating what is familiar to your fingers. You need to add some new ideas to your playing. 

An easy way is to learn something new. Pick a song and learn the solo, watch how the original guitarist played it live, and try out alternative fingerings.

Old dog, new tricks is bollocks by the way.

I love the that the fret board always has varied non judgemental advise from Dannys video above, to just stick some wah on it - which seems to come back every few years.   

But the comment that got me from @Roland ;about old dog new tricks bollocks -> which is spot on.  Embrace that you don't know stuff and it will help motivate you.  In the last fews months I have probably had my biggest learning spurt for many year, which is both frustrating and enlightening in equal measure, before this I if there was something I couldn't play I would put it down to it "just not my style".   Not anymore,  now it is more practice until I get sounds that I am expecting / hoping for.  Recording your playing a listening back also helps. 

Lewy

ToneControl said:

one trick is to learn to play the vocal lines, and then work around those

helps with developing phrasing and melodic thinking

This, ten times over! There is a lot to be gained by taking the melody of a song and finding it in a few places on the neck. You're essentially training your ear, but also giving yourself things to play at the same time.

When you say you marvel at the inventiveness of some players, I've found that most players like that have one simple thing in common - they can find the notes in their head on the guitar. Once they can do that, it becomes a completely different process for them because through listening and studying they are feeding the music they can think, not the music they can play. They can find inspiration in a much broader range of places because it's not limited to guitaristic things - could be sax, could be Gregorian chanting...anything. They could listen to a frigging Celine Dion vocal and get something out of it!

I think it's the kind of thing you can start small with. Even if you just take a single pentatonic position in a single key and ear train the crap out of yourself on it, so the thought comes first and the hands-on comes second, you can start to get into that realm. 

stickyfiddle

Melody melody melody. Practise coming up with tunes whenever you can. Not just with a guitar - in fact especially when you don't have a guitar. Then practise applying those melodies to guitar. 

If you struggle to think of anything new, then try listening to a new musical style that might give inspiration. 

hollywoodrox

ToneControl said:

one trick is to learn to play the vocal lines, and then work around those

helps with developing phrasing and melodic thinking

This , 

axisus

Thanks for the replies all, some useful comments!

Roland said:

axisus said:

I'm an old dog so new tricks are a bit beyond me, ...

Old dog, new tricks is bollocks by the way.

Yeah, you are right generally speaking, however, I have considered myself to be something of an old dog who struggles to learn new tricks. I found that in youth I had a degree of tenacity in learning stuff, but for many years now I have REALLY struggled to learn anything with music, including songs. Literally, whatever I learn one day I seem to have forgotten the next!

@Danny1969
good video, but I fall flat on the fact that I have no clue of the notes on the fretboard. See above para, none if the info sticks in my head.

Vibetronic said:

ps - modes stuff seems really complicated, but it doesn't have to be. I sort of think of it as a map of the guitar. One way to 'hear' it easily is to record a simple backing in G major - just strumming an open G chord will do. Then play the 4th mode of G - which is C Lydian over the top (C Lydian being C, D, E, F#, G, A, B, C - so basically C major but with a sharp 4th as it's in G major and using the notes of G major). Played over G, it won't really sound any different to the G major scale. But change the backing to C, dropping the 5th to F# now and again (you can just chug on a C5 chord and drop that 5th every 2 bars), and that C Lydian will sound really different - not like G major anymore, despite it using all the notes from the G major scale...particularly when you hit that F#. Hope that makes sense!

I'm sure it makes great sense but it's way over my head! As mentioned, I don't know the notes on the fretboard. 

I think what would suit me would be sat in a room with someone showing me stuff. I've always learned well with that kind of interaction rather than reading or watching a video. Not learning via online meeting though! I don't get on with those at all!

There's stuff in the thread to ponder on ...

DesWalker

A good start would be to learn the notes on the fretboard. Start with the frets that have dots and build out from there. I don’t see how you can get anywhere without that. You’ve got to get very familiar with the chromatic scale.

Danny1969

DesWalker said:

A good start would be to learn the notes on the fretboard. Start with the frets that have dots and build out from there. I don’t see how you can get anywhere without that. You’ve got to get very familiar with the chromatic scale.

Yep totally agree. You have to know where the notes is you want to be able to implement cool ideals on the fly.  Without that fundamental knowledge everything is going ground to a halt very quickly. 

Lewy

Danny1969 said:

DesWalker said:

A good start would be to learn the notes on the fretboard. Start with the frets that have dots and build out from there. I don’t see how you can get anywhere without that. You’ve got to get very familiar with the chromatic scale.

Yep totally agree. You have to know where the notes is you want to be able to implement cool ideals on the fly.  Without that fundamental knowledge everything is going ground to a halt very quickly. 

I observed a David Greer masterclass one time and he went round the room asking people what they wanted to achieve and nearly all of them said they wanted to improve their improvisation. He said OK, and asked them each to play Happy Birthday in whatever key he called out. Nobody got through it without a mistake, and this was an intermediate/advanced class. It was a great way to bring home the importance of the ground work of ear training and being able to find the notes - people wanted to be able to improvise but couldn't find the most familiar melody of all time on their instrument.

axisus

Danny1969 said:

DesWalker said:

A good start would be to learn the notes on the fretboard. Start with the frets that have dots and build out from there. I don’t see how you can get anywhere without that. You’ve got to get very familiar with the chromatic scale.

Yep totally agree. You have to know where the notes is you want to be able to implement cool ideals on the fly.  Without that fundamental knowledge everything is going ground to a halt very quickly. 

Hmmnn ...... maybe I'll make another attempt at that ..... 

Roland

Lewy said:

- people wanted to be able to improvise but couldn't find the most familiar melody of all time on their instrument.

It’s not the easiest melody