Red light fever ......or that's what I'm told it is !

Jimbo55

I'm a forever beginner guitar player - have lots of ditties I can play happily plinky plonking at home, but as soon as I go live with a few friends to jam, or even just try to record bits and pieces at home I just fumble, get outta time, and hit wrong strings/frets and make a fool of myself !
What's the remedy - I guess practice/practice/practice/concentrate etc etc
Anything else that can calm me and improve the situation ?????????
(PS- have got to the age where I'm not scared/embarrassed to go up on stage and waffle/speak on a microphone to loads of people though !)

Legionreturns

Practice playing 

A - Stood up 

B - Without looking at your guitar 

and 

C - To a click 

Once you can do all that, without thinking about it, it should help your live performances. 

Jimbo55

many thanks Legionreturns !
That sounds could be the way - I never need to do much of B (pleased to say), lazily slumped in chair at home playing and never really played to a metronome/drumbeat so strict A&C will apply from now on !
Funnily enough, an ad for Soundbrenner metronome watches popped up on my phone today, except they are bloomin' expensive to get the better version - any comments on those by the way ...if that's what it'll take I will though !

Legionreturns

Nah, just a cheap or free metronome app on your phone is fine.

It's rare that you'd need to play to a click live; that's what the drummer is for! 

The point of doing it is to get better at staying "in time" without speeding up. 

The standing up thing is something that happens a lot. I get a lot of YBTB clients in the studio that have been playing at home, to a high standard for years, but don't own a strap or ever play stood up. It completely changes your muscle memory. 

If the goal is playing live, particularly in a band situation, having a good strap and many hours of vertical playing is essential. 

Snags

Definitely practice standing up, unless you're going to jams where you can sit down all the time.

Also, just go to more jams/group situations - ultimately familiarity makes you more comfortable, it's less of a "thing" and you can relax more. Until you get to that stage, just do simple calming stuff - breathe slowly and deeply, make sure you've got time to get set up, actively relax (as it were) and don't over think it.

And keep it simple - don't do things that are going to push you technically until you're comfortable with the people/situation.

And listen - spend more time listening to what's going on than your own playing, and just play the bits you need to fit in. You'll find you can play less and achieve more when you're not just playing with yourself, quite often (ooer, fnarr etc.).

But basically keep doing it, so it becomes normal.

Jimbo55

Thank you so much - I am already feeling a bit better and more confident, but still a long way to go ....the new way ahead starts today !

fretmeister

I'm not actually a fan of metronomes as they are too rigid. Real drummers aren't perfect (don't we know!) but that variation when the band pushes hard or relaxes a bit is part of the magic of performance.

If you have a drum machine or an app that will allow for that variation it will feel much more natural.

Some beginners find it weird to try and lock in with a drummer - after all there's usually at least 5 drums, a high hat and a couple of cymbals. Try to listen to just 1 part of the kit, or 2 at the most. High Hat or kick drum usually. They are often the most stable and present.

And any bassist will tell you, the secret to developing good time is The One. Always land on the 1. The first beat of the bar. Don't be afraid to go silent and rest until The One if that gets you back on track.

LastMantra

I'm not a fan of metronomes either tbh.

TTony

I was in a similar situation a year or so back, when I started trying to record acoustic and vocals.

Remembering a proper song structure, all the way through, every time I played it was the first challenge.  Then ditto lyrics.  But after a while, I got those bits sorted and thought my timing was fine.    Until I recorded a few, and then tried to overlay a drum track, or some loops, or whatever ... turns out my timing was all over the place!

Getting past the red light fever really is just a matter of practice.  It's getting to the stage of knowing that you know what you're doing, and you're quite happy that you can do it.  Practice.  The first ones are the hardest, once you've done some, you'll work out your own tips/tricks and the next ones will be a lot easier.

As I'm recording, I'll do 2 things.

Firstly, I've got a DAW running on the screen, so I'll chunk the track up into Intro / Verse / Chorus / Verse / Solo / Chorus / etc, and colour-code the different sections.  So, with a quick glance at the screen I can see where I am in the track, and what's coming next.  Helps keep the structure very visible, and there's no "what comes next" mind-blanks.

Secondly, within the DAW, I'll have a click track running at first, just to keep the played tracks somewhere near in-time.      That's only really necessary if you're going to be building up other recorded tracks in the DAW.  If you're going to be mainly playing live then you'll pick up the timing/beat from the rest of the band.  If you're mainly going to record just a couple of tracks, then a little timing variability doesn't matter too much.  

If you're playing jazz, then forget anything above re timing, structure , lyrics, etc.

Legionreturns

fretmeister said:

I'm not actually a fan of metronomes as they are too rigid. Real drummers aren't perfect (don't we know!) but that variation when the band pushes hard or relaxes a bit is part of the magic of performance.

If you have a drum machine or an app that will allow for that variation it will feel much more natural.

Some beginners find it weird to try and lock in with a drummer - after all there's usually at least 5 drums, a high hat and a couple of cymbals. Try to listen to just 1 part of the kit, or 2 at the most. High Hat or kick drum usually. They are often the most stable and present.

And any bassist will tell you, the secret to developing good time is The One. Always land on the 1. The first beat of the bar. Don't be afraid to go silent and rest until The One if that gets you back on track.

Well yes, absolutely. 

I much prefer to play along to sequenced drums using Stephen Slate, or, even better, a real drummer. 

The point was about learning to listen to a beat and play in time to it, rather than stay at exactly 120bmp or whatever. 

It's the listening part that is the necessary skill. 

fretmeister

Yup.

This is a concept often not realised. If I play 4 crotchets in 4/4 but because I'm having trouble remembering where the next note is the time between them is different I am still playing in time if the notes still land on the source of the time (me counting 1,2,3,4).

Nobody keeps counting 1,2,3,4 while delaying to check a note.

So 1, 2, err what's the next one, 10 seconds have passed, oh there it is, 3, 4

That is still in time because it matches the actual count as it happens. This is very different from not knowing where the next note is and having to skip it because the time keeper has moved on.

tanihhiavlt

Jimbo55 said:

I'm a forever beginner guitar player - have lots of ditties I can play happily plinky plonking at home, but as soon as I go live with a few friends to jam, or even just try to record bits and pieces at home I just fumble, get outta time, and hit wrong strings/frets and make a fool of myself !
What's the remedy - I guess practice/practice/practice/concentrate etc etc
Anything else that can calm me and improve the situation ?????????
(PS- have got to the age where I'm not scared/embarrassed to go up on stage and waffle/speak on a microphone to loads of people though !)

See if any of this rings a bell

What I used to do was be super-confident in practice and get bored, go off topic, improvise, distract etc...

I'd be tunnel-vision level terrified come performance time, if the drummer dropped a beat, someone called for us to return to the head... or the  lead singer picks up an untuned guitar not used in the sound-check and is sounding shit...

I'd leave the stage brooding over flunked notes or missed licks in "improvisation" - I had a fixed idea of how it was meant to go and never managed to exceed those expectations. (hindsight showed I'd be thinking "this is a fantasy right? so I can play better than that" when I was planning )

In all this baggage and worry I had zero stage presence. and little process for practice either - this is me, your challenges may be different we all are. 

The issue for me was/is - where my comfort zone was and where it needed to be to have fun. 

For the challenges you're describing, I went to IGF got up on stage, sucked, did it again sucked less, got up and jammed sucked a bit, repeat sucked less... Experience is king and the only way to rewrite the neural pathways - the week after the second IGF, we went to France on holidays and I pitched into a Karaoke bar and sang Valerie because it frightened me - I crushed it  

Now I'm taking a course at playinthezone.com on getting into the musical zone, because until then practice was the only thing I had to reassure myself I wouldn't make mistakes, experience was the only thing I had to pull me out of mistakes (mine and others) - what I want is to play music not battle my anxieties in front of a live audience  

Acdeezee86

Definitely recognise OP's anxieties! Without being mega experienced myself, I have found that taking things in small bits (e.g. focussing on just one lick and variations on it, or maybe restricting myself to playing on a couple of strings) has given me more confidence and a feeling of being in control that then allows me to relax and enjoy myself more.  

sev112

I was taught / told by Clarkey a good few years back to set strap length to the length you play sitting down.  That means it’s the same place when you play standing up.
it works really well.

TheBigDipper

If you play "solo" most of the time then you'll not be developing the skill of playing in time with other people. You'll be setting the tempo based on your undeveloped internal clock and be all over the place. Using a metronome (or drum machine) won't just help you play in time by yourself, but will also help you develop the skill of listening to other people so you don't speed up or slow down relative to them.

If you're setting your own tempo based on the click, you'll be able to do it with the band, too. It's not about teaching you to be robotic regarding tempo, but just to subconsciously listen to the others! 

tanihhiavlt

Justin Sandercoe's Training App also has settings for the "drummer" dropping notes too. 

HAL9000

Don’t try to impress. Better to play a few notes well than to play lots of notes badly. Also, play a long long way inside the limits of what you are capable of at home.

CoffeeAndTV

I agree with the other posters.  The only thing I will add is about being present on stage without getting in your head.  Take a step back, try to relax, notice the tempo etc.

I started playing gigs in my mid teens in a band with a friend’s  dad.  It was all very friendly and we worked three to five gigs a week without any problems.

Never had much of an issue until I got into my late teens early twenties, I must of got more aware.  I read the Inner Game of Music which helped tremendously.  

Snags

Also, always remember that no-one is going to shoot you if you screw up. Even if you screw up quite badly - and most screw ups that feel bad to you aren't actually that bad. Nobody dies if you play a wrong note or sing the wrong line.

And generally, audiences are pretty forgiving, and even like a bit of human fallibility to creep through, particularly in smaller venues. A cock-up is an opportunity to bond and charm, if handled well (so don't throw your guitar down and huff off, quip and carry on like it didn't happen ).

Jimbo55

Thanks so much all on your experiences, thoughts and recommendations - I was originally hesitant on posting my issues (feeling silly) but seems so many experience the same.
Key things I will do now are to practice more, and standing up, be less ambitious (at a time) learning new bits and pieces, and try and gain some more confidence in front of people. The timing is an important and interesting one ...metronomes are tricky to keep pace with and the mention of drum backings with dropped hits/mis-timings and interesting thing !
I must admit to getting preoccupied with what I do wrong, rather than what went right, and this is fortunately how most audiences can be so encouraging, musicians themselves are incredibly supportive.
Keeping in time with others playing is something I have problem with because often I can't quite hear what others are doing because of makeshift sound systems and maybe my own hearing at times (going to get that checked) - soundchecks seems OK but once everyone fires up I cant hear myself even play.
Thank you all so much again

hollywoodrox

I know what you mean about hearing yourself , especially with people you have not played with before , sometimes the barrage of sound can be overwhelming, it’s not so bad if you rehearse with your own regular band as you are used to all the foibles  but rocking up somewhere that’s an unknown quantity can catch you unawares  as you may have a cymbal crashing in your ear  .