Is made in America

Philly_Q

dazzajl said:

impmann said:

Actually... my only evidence is discussing this with someone at Fender US, regarding a job I was interested in over there... so thats a little circumstantial. But there was talk of extra training, higher grade workmanship, extra processes and a different set of work instructions being followed. Plus if you were running two plants near to each other, surely common sense states that you'd promote your best workers to the premium plant? ………

That’s got to be the best insight I’ve heard yet and really interesting stuff. 

I’m not sure how I’d split my talents over the two plants, I can think of arguments for any and every option. But that’s why I don’t run Fender I guess. 

I wonder how easy it is to just choose who works in the US and who works in the Mexico plant?  I don't know anything about US/Mexico border regulations other than what I've heard in TV shows and Donald Trump rants, but surely there isn't totally free movement?

In terms of differences between the workforces, I'd guess it's less to do with skill levels and more to do with those different processes, work instructions, and wage structures.  Whichever plant they work at, they're constrained by costs and profit margins.

Smellyfingers

Offset said:

francer said:

elstoof said:

I care about it when it’s a company that trades on its heritage and commits to providing employment to their community, but the country itself doesn’t matter. Like Triumph motorbikes, I’ll never buy one because despite sticking a Union Jack logo on every model they shut down their British factory and make them all in Thailand - there’s nothing wrong with Thailand but if you’re selling a so called British icon then I want to support the British community that creates it. If I want a Gibson I am happy to pay a premium in order to support a company that supports its community, it’s easy to outsource production to a cheaper factory in the Far East and maximise the shareholder’s profits but I’d never buy a Gibson that wasn’t made in the USA. I’d just as happily buy a German or Japanese instrument that supports its local people though

I hate this kind of Britwashing, makes me actively avoid a company's products. You see it all over the place, seems like the more an item is festooned with union jacks, the more likely it is to be made in China

Mrs O bought me an expensive Belstaff Racemaster jacket for my birthday this year.  It's uber-cool and Richard Thompson's '1952 Vincent Black Lightning' runs through my head each time I pull it on.  It too is bestowed with a Union Jack motif and it trades heavily on Belstaff's heritage.  The stiff price suggests UK manufacture.

It was made in Vietnam.

Otoh, I've got a dimplex electric space heater which cost £80, I've d it on constantly as  the sole heating source for my flat in winter for the last 3 years.

I've searched for a union jack on it to no avail, but it is in fact made in Northern Ireland. 

Philly_Q

Smellyfingers said:

Otoh, I've got a dimplex electric space heater which cost £80, I've d it on constantly as  the sole heating source for my flat in winter for the last 3 years.

I've searched for a union jack on it to no avail, but it is in fact made in Northern Ireland. 

@Smellyfingers I'm intrigued, what type of heater is that exactly?

I'm always afraid my gas boiler is going to pack up, it might be worth investing in one of these things.

sev112

My thoughts are whether 
- wood quality is the same
- specifications are the same
- time spent on each element is the same
- QA processes applied

those are (in principle) defined by the top management
if they allocate different wood, hardware specs etc etc. to different lines and different lines to different countries, then it would be reasonable to deduce that the higher spec’d lines are the “best” in principle, 

by which time we get to the time , skill and individual care that any worker provides and whether they having a good day or whether it’s Friday

SPECTRUM001

There appear to be a number of ways of looking at this discussion, which center on tradition/reputation, specification and the politics of the global workplace.

Parking to one side builders/designers with umpteen years of experience and skill. People can be trained, and given the correct guidance and tools can make whatever wherever.

Would the acid test be to take...let's say an American Original Telecaster - and have it built to (supposedly) the same level of craft with the same materials, however in the Mexican factory. Does that devalue the product ?

Not in my book (unless the corporate idea is to actually produce shoddier goods).

So wouldn't this therefore be more about whether the non USA product lines provide the desired level of specification ?? Apologies regarding non-Fender product, as I do not know enough about recent standards and lines to comment constructively.

Smellyfingers

Philly_Q said:

Smellyfingers said:

Otoh, I've got a dimplex electric space heater which cost £80, I've d it on constantly as  the sole heating source for my flat in winter for the last 3 years.

I've searched for a union jack on it to no avail, but it is in fact made in Northern Ireland. 

@Smellyfingers I'm intrigued, what type of heater is that exactly?

I'm always afraid my gas boiler is going to pack up, it might be worth investing in one of these things.

It's a dimplex slimline 800w heater, I think it costs about £15 a week to run constantly, it is now £110. It won't make a flat like toasty, but will stave off hyporthemia

Philly_Q

Smellyfingers said:

Philly_Q said:

Smellyfingers said:

Otoh, I've got a dimplex electric space heater which cost £80, I've d it on constantly as  the sole heating source for my flat in winter for the last 3 years.

I've searched for a union jack on it to no avail, but it is in fact made in Northern Ireland. 

@Smellyfingers I'm intrigued, what type of heater is that exactly?

I'm always afraid my gas boiler is going to pack up, it might be worth investing in one of these things.

It's a dimplex slimline 800w heater, I think it costs about £15 a week to run constantly, it is now £110. It won't make a flat like toasty, but will stave off hyporthemia

Oh, the flat panel type?  I've actually got one of those but haven't used it for about 20 years.  I don't know what wattage it is, but they're probably a lot more efficient now anyway!

crunchman

This went up on YouTube today:

Tannin

Philly_Q said:

Oh, the flat panel type?  I've actually got one of those but haven't used it for about 20 years.  I don't know what wattage it is, but they're probably a lot more efficient now anyway!

Almost certainly not. With an electric heater, 100% of the power it consumes is turned into heat. That is true regardless of the type of heater or the technology involved. The only things that can be changed (as regards efficiency) are (1) exactly what it heats (the air passing over it, objects in the room via radiant heat, and so on, and (b) how smart it is about turning itself off at appropriate times. Oh, and (c) whether you can plug a Les Paul into it or cook eggs on it.

Philly_Q

Tannin said:

Philly_Q said:

Oh, the flat panel type?  I've actually got one of those but haven't used it for about 20 years.  I don't know what wattage it is, but they're probably a lot more efficient now anyway!

Almost certainly not. With an electric heater, 100% of the power it consumes is turned into heat. That is true regardless of the type of heater or the technology involved. The only things that can be changed (as regards efficiency) are (1) exactly what it heats (the air passing over it, objects in the room via radiant heat, and so on, and (b) how smart it is about turning itself off at appropriate times. Oh, and (c) whether you can plug a Les Paul into it or cook eggs on it.

You lost me with all the science, but mine definitely isn't/wasn't hot enough to cook eggs on it.

Tannin

Sorry Philly_D, that was a nod to the "Can you cook eggs on a valve amp" thread.

Philly_Q

Tannin said:

Sorry Philly_D, that was a nod to the "Can you cook eggs on a valve amp" thread.

Ah, I missed that one.... I rarely visit the Amps section.  Probably because I rarely visit an amp.

tekbow

On the topic of Amps, and broadening the conversation, possibly amps made in the west could be argued to justify more of a premium over amps made in the far east?

Certainly in terms of construction methods, and engineering design?

Exceptions like Ceriatone granted.

maltingsaudio

tekbow said:

On the topic of Amps, and broadening the conversation, possibly amps made in the west could be argued to justify more of a premium over amps made in the far east?

Certainly in terms of construction methods, and engineering design?

Exceptions like Ceriatone granted.

I would suggest that the UK with Marshall is the benchmark for amps. Mention guitar  amps in conversation and for probably 90% of the population that’s the first make they think of

rlw

How do we all feel about iPhones.  Famous and respected USA brand all made overseas.

rossi

Our house and most of my family are all Apple and have been since the 90's .Sod where its made or anything thing is made .I had my guilt trip in the 60's when the guy who was almost killed in a Jap POW camp and barely recovered walked past my new Honda  and couldnt believe it was Japanese .Later on in the late 60's I ordered a BSA and it was never produced  so i got a Kawasaki We have sold our heritage though and the factories that saved us long ago are not around now or the workforce.One day that is going to kick us in the teeth and up the arse.

crunchman

rlw said:

How do we all feel about iPhones.  Famous and respected USA brand all made overseas.

Overpriced and paying for the name.

elstoof

I don’t care about an iPhone or any piece of tech anywhere near as much as I do a guitar. If I smash a phone I can get another identical one a day later, I’ll trade it in after a couple of years to get money off the next one. My guitar is one of a kind that I’ll never be able to replace exactly, not the same feel, not the same wood, not the same anything. 

guitarjack66

I am less likely to buy anything with a Union Jack on it because I know it's an advertising ruse to pretend it's British made. At best part of it might be but in reality the first time it(any product really)has been touched by British hands will be when the container is opened or the pallet separated. The Union Jack has also been hijacked by the worst part of British society,the hypocrites who hide behind it to hide racism and xenophobia too.
On a still relevant but lighter note,I have to smile when I pass a local Aldi with a large Union Jack sticker on it's window promoting 'British' goods. I'd trust them more if it had a German flag instead.

Jez6345789

Bit late to this party 

But I think for a good period of time probably since the 80's really you could and still can get a better guitar not made in America. I have no big love for Fender and less for Gibson and all my F style guitars are parts or bits I have built myself and for Les Pauls been a sucker for Japanese since the early Tokai I owned. 

As said if you look at the 80's Japan was eating the lunch of US guitar makers and the average top of the pops or THe Tube bands would being playing Aria, Yamaha etc. 

I think a bit after this American companies probably all visited the same marketing guru who told them all you have is your heritage. As if you look back around that time none of those companies had the ability to build the guitars they were famous for. 

Fender had just started its MBO and all that lot were drawing round whatever F~ender they could find to even get the basic shape and those 80's  Strat shapes were all over the place. 

Gibson has systematically year on year been trying to build an accurate representation of their golden era guitars what has taken Gibson  decades Bartlet Yaron and others achieved in a few months

Martin was again in no better shape it had few people who could build decent stuff and over the years the templates were worn out never replaced and the guitars were built like tanks to keep warranty costs down. Its was Christ Martin who brought back the history. 

So yes the US companies since then have spent a lot of dough to convince us that they make 'em like they used and it's a whole myth we have bought into over the year me included. These days I just judge guitars on the object in front of me and I am too old to get gaga about it being made using this that or the other magic spell they used in xxxx.

I do like PRS guitars as I think for all their detractors they are pretty straight shooters in terms of aiming to build better guitars which on most levels they succeed.