No Mesa Boogie amps in stock?

idiotwindow

Stevepage said:

webrthomson said:

Peach have a load on order too:

https://www.peachguitars.com/search.php?Go=&q=Mesa+boogie 

However JP2C is now £4399 (vs $3999 in the US) and a Mark VII is £3849 (vs $3499 in the US) - thanks but nope - I've got old Mark series amps I'll stick with those...

That is the sort of mark up we were seeing from Westside and that didnt end well at all.

Jonathanthomas83 said:

We aren’t surprised, are we? Gibson are pricks of the highest order.

^ pretty much this

$3999 - convert currency using todays rate = £3,156.  An extra £1243, absolutely not worth it. How can that even be justified? even after taking into account shipping, taxes etc

Well, the VAT adds £631 to that £3156. There may also be a few percent worth of duty on an amp to add. There will also be other costs to add – transportation, customs clearance, etc. These costs will be more than people assume. The £4,399 retail price will also be a price judged to be right for an amp like this in the current UK market – ie. a market of £5K+ Two Rocks, etc. With the Mesa amps likely to be in short supply and in fairly high demand, why would Gibson and the dealer network price below that "market" price?

Jonathanthomas83

With due respect, I don’t think you can compare the quality of Two Rock and Mesa made amps. Less so now that Gibson own them. 

RiftAmps

Jonathanthomas83 said:

With due respect, I don’t think you can compare the quality of Two Rock and Mesa made amps. Less so now that Gibson own them. 

How do you know that? Have you seen inside of one?

57Deluxe

 

fretmeister

Jonathanthomas83 said:

With due respect, I don’t think you can compare the quality of Two Rock and Mesa made amps. Less so now that Gibson own them. 

Have Mesa cheapened their designed or components then?

Got a link?

Jonathanthomas83

RiftAmps said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

With due respect, I don’t think you can compare the quality of Two Rock and Mesa made amps. Less so now that Gibson own them. 

How do you know that? Have you seen inside of one?

I will lean on your better judgement as I am not an expert. As a couple of you have alluded to, I admit that I may be unwittingly spreading misinformation due to presumed internet wisdom on the matter. I have always read that TR have only used the best of the best components, and cut zero corners and that as a result, even at their extreme price points, that they make little on each unit. I have also read that MB aren’t infallible and I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that they don’t take the same ethos and also assumed that under Gibson’s leadership that the QC on them may be further compromised (assumed based on personal experience). So apologies if I am spreading misinformation, but it’s based on what I’ve read over the years and experienced. Sorry, I have no links. I have always been a Mesa fan (was bitterly disappointed by the Gibson takeover) so I’m not trying to be a troll, just stating my observations and apologies if I’m wrong, would be happy to admit that I am :-)

ICBM

The last time I can remember that Gibson bought an amp company - Trace Elliot - they dramatically *improved* the quality of some of the products. And admittedly, increased the prices...

Two Rock aren't 'infallible' either, I've had to repair one of their amps due to a component quality issue.

snowblind

I'd better tell the local music shop to boost the price for that old Lonestar he has sitting around. 

 

webrthomson

Stevepage said:

$3999 - convert currency using todays rate = £3,156.  An extra £1243, absolutely not worth it. How can that even be justified? even after taking into account shipping, taxes etc

Same goes for Marshalls sold in the US. A JVM410 over there cost them, $3200. Doesn't make much sense to me. 

Yeah, I don't get the markup either, not even a distributor to blame anymore, I suppose there are some service costs but over a £1,000 pound per amp markup seems excessive.

idiotwindow

Jonathanthomas83 said:

With due respect, I don’t think you can compare the quality of Two Rock and Mesa made amps.

I wasn't comparing the quality, just pointing out that Mesa are operating in a marketplace where in-demand amps routinely sell for £5k or more. Why sell a Mesa amp for £3k if it will sell for £4.5k? Gibson are not known for underselling a brand.

MichaelAT

idiotwindow said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

With due respect, I don’t think you can compare the quality of Two Rock and Mesa made amps.

I wasn't comparing the quality, just pointing out that Mesa are operating in a marketplace where in-demand amps routinely sell for £5k or more. Why sell a Mesa amp for £3k if it will sell for £4.5k? Gibson are not known for underselling a brand.

Well in that case it's the question if the Mesa brand (perception) is as highly regarded as TR, Amplified Nation etc.

But regarding quality: over at the Gearpage there are some credible reports that Gibson has not yet interfered with Mesa. Let's see how things develop, but I don't think that currently Mesa quality drops. However TR and other boutique amps are a different league. Mesa amps are PCB based mass production (even way before Gibson stepped in), although they claim the amps are handwired (some steps might be). Turret board handwiring or even PTP in some cases is much more labor intensive and therefore more expensive. That does not necessarily mean they sound better,

There are lots of gut shots of Mesa amps online, you see board mounted tubes and ribbon ("PC") connectors. All well made and the construction can still last a long time, but it's not boutique by any means.

snowblind

MichaelAT said:

There are lots of gut shots of Mesa amps online, you see board mounted tubes and ribbon ("PC") connectors. All well made and the construction can still last a long time, but it's not boutique by any means.

Interesting though when you compare that to the almost universal scorn most YT amp techs pour on "Mesa Engineering".
Crowded boards, questionable design choices, iffy component selection. Obviously being amp techs they are highlighting the failures but the overhead of fixing Mesas when they do break seems excessive.

ICBM

snowblind said:

Interesting though when you compare that to the almost universal scorn most YT amp techs pour on "Mesa Engineering".

Crowded boards, questionable design choices, iffy component selection. Obviously being amp techs they are highlighting the failures but the overhead of fixing Mesas when they do break seems excessive.

My experience in over 25 years as an amp tech is that Mesas can indeed be a pig to work on - although not always, quite a lot of parts are easily accessed from the top side of the PCB - but that they don’t fail very often at all. In fact, given the length of time the brand has existed, and the relatively large number of amps made by comparison with almost any other non-‘major manufacturer’ company, I would say they’re well above average for reliability, and probably better than some of the much-hyped ‘boutique’ brands with supposedly superior ‘hand wiring’ (hint: it’s not superior).

But what would I know, I don’t have a YouTube channel…

snowblind

Your breadth of experience in the amp repair game obviously gives you a better perspective than most. Could you say on balance whether Mesa build quality has improved/degraded over the years? Almost all products are subject to the whims of accountancy and I certainly agree that quality surface mount technology is in no way inferior to some guy hunched over a hot soldering iron doing turret boards at least in an electrical sense.

It becomes more of a question of maintenance once the predefined working life of a thing expires. Part of the value in vintage-style gear is that it is repairable and if there is a perception that real craftsmanship was involved in the construction then so much the better. 

Taking car engines as an example they are usually built by machines to tolerances a human would find hard to match. When they break the ethos now is largely just to toss them and put in a complete new unit. There is no emotional investment in the construction which renders them largely disposable. This does lead to a lack of differentiation to some extent. Efficiencies lead to similar outcomes so a new Gibson Falcon looks a lot like a Fender bassbreaker inside which looks a lot like a Marshall JVM inside and so on. If you never open the box to look inside do you care what the guts of a thing are? Does its job and that is where the interest ends. However if you KNOW there are components inside a thing that have a finite lifespan but the prospect of replacing said parts fills you with dread it will colour your judgement.

ICBM

snowblind said:

Could you say on balance whether Mesa build quality has improved/degraded over the years?

 Better in some areas, arguably worse in others. The quality of the PCBs has improved, but the use of crimped jumper connectors is less good. Overall they are still one of the best-made amps though, certainly of anything generally considered ‘mass produced’.

On that subject it’s also worth saying that there’s no such thing as a ‘hand made’ amp - only hand-assembled. All electronic components are mass-produced, mostly on fully-automated production lines. I know that may sound like splitting hairs, but given how many people seem to get hung up about ‘mass production’ as if it’s a bad thing…

randella

ICBM said:

On that subject it’s also worth saying that there’s no such thing as a ‘hand made’ amp - only hand-assembled. All electronic components are mass-produced, mostly on fully-automated production lines. I know that may sound like splitting hairs, but given how many people seem to get hung up about ‘mass production’ as if it’s a bad thing…

Those YouTube tech channels can be interesting - there's plenty to learn. On the other hand, I do tend to tune out the whingeing. Two decades of working in the software industry will do that for you - there's a certain breed of developer whose default position is "I haven't seen this code yet but nonetheless it's shit and I could write better."

I feel some of those guys wouldn't be happy until everything was built on turret in someone's shed.

fretmeister

randella said:

ICBM said:

On that subject it’s also worth saying that there’s no such thing as a ‘hand made’ amp - only hand-assembled. All electronic components are mass-produced, mostly on fully-automated production lines. I know that may sound like splitting hairs, but given how many people seem to get hung up about ‘mass production’ as if it’s a bad thing…

Those YouTube tech channels can be interesting - there's plenty to learn. On the other hand, I do tend to tune out the whingeing. Two decades of working in the software industry will do that for you - there's a certain breed of developer whose default position is "I haven't seen this code yet but nonetheless it's shit and I could write better."

I feel some of those guys wouldn't be happy until everything was built on turret in someone's shed.

You laugh - but DR Strings actually go really far to make a big deal that their strings are made from "American Wire".

It's as if American Ore is better!

randella

fretmeister said:

randella said:

ICBM said:

On that subject it’s also worth saying that there’s no such thing as a ‘hand made’ amp - only hand-assembled. All electronic components are mass-produced, mostly on fully-automated production lines. I know that may sound like splitting hairs, but given how many people seem to get hung up about ‘mass production’ as if it’s a bad thing…

Those YouTube tech channels can be interesting - there's plenty to learn. On the other hand, I do tend to tune out the whingeing. Two decades of working in the software industry will do that for you - there's a certain breed of developer whose default position is "I haven't seen this code yet but nonetheless it's shit and I could write better."

I feel some of those guys wouldn't be happy until everything was built on turret in someone's shed.

You laugh - but DR Strings actually go really far to make a big deal that their strings are made from "American Wire".

It's as if American Ore is better!

I wonder how many times manufacturers are trapped in these circles of having to use this and that ingredient. I bet whoever designed the PCB in my Mesa Mini Rec was cursing those big old orange Sprague capacitors whilst they were trying to cram a two channel, four-voice 25W valve amp into half a shoebox.

On the flip side, imagine they released an amp with another high-quality brand of cap. There'd be a TGP lynching heading over to Petaluma as soon as the gut shots hit the internet

snowblind

The insistence on using those massive orange caps is one of the criticisms I've heard against Mesa. There are smaller, more practical options that are equally high quality that would give the potential for far less crowded boards but I suppose when you are saddled with something that is part of the branding you have to keep up appearances.

Again though, most amps aren't sold on the premise of how easy they are to repair. Fender have sold an awful lot of amps with self-immolating circuit boards in them but this won't be the first thing on some kid's mind when he's buying his first valve amp. 

I'm thinking there must be a ton of twenty year old Mesa Boogies sat unused in garages and lofts. If only they could find their way to market.

Bats_

I think at the prices we’ve seen, lots of Mesa amps will be in stock.