Help me to escape the bloody blues scale!!!!!!

relic245

Just another thought. I've also spent many years frustrated by being stuck in the same old patterns, but really making progress now. 

Looking back I kind of understood what modes were and how to use them from a theoretical point of view. What I didn't have was any 'flying hours' using them. 

I think I wanted to master them in an afternoon too! That created a lot of mental blocks for me that I just couldn't get my head around it. 

This time as I've said I picked 1 mode. Actually 1 pattern from 1 mode and played with that for a while. 

I'm about 2 months into learning this stuff and I'm not putting a huge amount of time into it but making more progress than I have done before. 

Because I'm focusing on a small area I'm noticing improvement, that improvement is keeping me motivated to keep going and it seems to be getting easier as I go. 

Baby steps and all that.

Tannin

Nix the backing track. It ties you into a corner and creates expectations. Same-old-same-old expectations. So you play exactly that: same-old, same-old.  

Accompany yourself. Just a single note drone is all you need. It can be as much in your head as an actual sound. Find other notes that sound nice with it. Then push the envelope. What if you throw in a flat 5? How about playing both minor thirds over it at the same time? Experiment with runs, playing for example, the major third on the way up and the minor third on the way down. Do all this with single note backing because they you are free to play anything - any scale, any tonality. Before too long you find yourself doing interesting new stuff.

Nix the backing track.

octatonic

axisus said:

octatonic said:

axisus said:

Also, apologies to anyone who has already offered to help in the past, all I can say is that I'm trying again!

Please do refer to what I said in earlier threads- it was pretty clearly laid out what you have to do.

Yes Sir! I was obviously thinking of you when I typed that, and I will indeed search back on your previous advice. Thanks for that input in days gone by, I'm trying to make more of a go of things this time around!

I am happy to help, obvs- have a look at the fusion thread.

The advice doesn't change though- this is why I advocate for getting on it because the same concerns and issues are always there waiting for you to work on. People either do it or they don't.

Don't rush it- it does take a while to get but the great thing is when you get little wins, which spurs you on.
A positive mental attitude really helps, although I didn't have that for the first decade, I used the stick rather than the carrot.
So I didn't have as much fun as other people but I still got there.

One thing in that thread I didn't say is I would get the major scale and modes sorted well before melodic/harmonic minor modes. The best advice I can give anyone is 'don't major in minor things'. Put your attention to things that will really progress your playing.
Harmonising the major scale, focussing on playing chord progressions with arpeggios so that you can do with without thinking 'where does my finger go next' is still quite a lot of work and it will transform your playing much more than more esoteric but 'cool' sounding stuff.

octatonic

Also... consider lessons.
It will be so much harder doing it yourself/youtube videos.
At least for a year- then you can deploy the method once you know what it is.

Lewy

Lewy said:

If you put your backing track on, didn’t pick up your guitar, and just tried to hum or sing a solo instead of play one, would you come up with something less boring do you think?

I wasn't being facetious when I asked this, by the way, in case it came across that way. It just strikes me that before you embark on loads of theory and nuts and bolts like scales and modes, you should establish whether it might actually be the case that you need to focus more on developing your taste and your ear...essentially your connection with music. I've seen a lot of people stay lost or stuck because they don't stop to ask themselves "what sounds do I like?" and "if technique and theory were no object, what would I be playing right now?". 

DavidR

Find some DADGAD music.

guitarjack66

relic245 said:

My first thought would be to think about your attitude to learning.

starting out with “I struggle to learn theory” and then making an excuse for your age isn’t going to get you in a good frame of mind. Its also giving you ready made excuses when you come across a hurdle.

im only a couple of years behind you in age and I relish learning new stuff. Not just on guitar.

Get excited about the idea of learning something new and not just trying to escape boredom and you’ll find it a lot easier.

I recently started to learn modes. Chose 1 at random (Phrygian) got a backing track, did a bit of reading, watched a ton of YouTube vids and was having fun in no time.

then I moved on to Dorian and was sounding like Santana in a few minutes.

it’s not hard but you do have to be prepared to apply yourself.

good luck.

I too,am only a few years behind you in age and I enjoy the theory side too. My reasoning is simple,if I know more theory then I have more scope when playing the guitar and can mix things up to stay away from 'holes' where I get bored. You sound way more experienced than me but as has been said,change your view and doors will open. I mean,as a beginner,simply learning barre chords and their theory opens up way more doors instantly let alone triads,double stops,scales and so on. 

Vibetronic

I’d be happy to hook up and go through things with you but (ie most of what people have already said, hence I haven’t elaborated further on that side of things!) I seem to recall you’re miles away. I’m in Stroud if that’s any use. 

digitalkettle

Lewy said:

Lewy said:

If you put your backing track on, didn’t pick up your guitar, and just tried to hum or sing a solo instead of play one, would you come up with something less boring do you think?

I wasn't being facetious when I asked this, by the way, in case it came across that way. It just strikes me that before you embark on loads of theory and nuts and bolts like scales and modes, you should establish whether it might actually be the case that you need to focus more on developing your taste and your ear...essentially your connection with music. I've seen a lot of people stay lost or stuck because they don't stop to ask themselves "what sounds do I like?" and "if technique and theory were no object, what would I be playing right now?". 

I think it's a good point...keeps auto-pilot at bay too!

guitars4you

The issue I have with backing tracks is that in the main, you tend to play licks over the 12 bar cycle which might loop over that progression 10-20 times - Very rarely would greats like SRV play a solo over more than 2 cycles off the 12 bar progression - If he goes longer than 2 cycles it will be when he and the band hit the groove and he plays more of a  chord groove/progression - So easy to get devoid of ideas after 2/3 or 4 loops of the 12 bar cycle - Great to be able to loop say the last 4 bars, time after time to work on turnarounds - So play a solo for 12 x 2 bars then go back to a riff, chord work, chord vamps etc for 2/3/4 cycles, then go back to a fresh solo

I sometimes get bored of the pentatonic format, but then find new players, like Kirk Fletcher, and realise I'm no where near ready to leave it yet - Saying that I only use the pentatonic as a basic sketch pad, as I add 9th maj 3rd, flat 5th, 6th etc as required to work with the pentatonic notes

The issue I have is trying to play a melodic solo - Maybe the best way of describing this is the Brick in the wall solo - Most of us can sing it front to back - Jam over this chord sequence - But now pretend you are Dave Gilmour and recording this for the first time - Don't copy the original - But try and play a melodic solo that will have the same character ie instantly memorable - And I can't even come close - I can doodle time after time - But can't play/write such a melodic solo - Ditto All Right now etc etc

HAL9000

For more melodic soloing - major pentatonics and chord tones are your friends. 

Don’t be afraid to mix major and minor pentatonics.

viz

Loads of good advice here, and I heartily agree with all of it - Octatonic's points in particular resonate with me: committing the basics of harmonic theory to memory, and then to muscle memory, so that they're totally inbuilt, is fundamental, and there's a lifetime of joy to be had there alone; but then the multiverses of new options that spring off that foundation are limitless.

I reckon if you went to a teacher and showed him/her where you were in your playing and asked for some tips to help you make a step change to the next level, that would inspire you.

Also, this post below is really excellent; if you could go through this, slowly, with someone to demonstrate on a piano what's been written, it would be really helpful for you.

steamabacus said:

Here's an avenue that might prove fruitful for expanding beyond the pentatonic scale into the modes.

First of all, try and get the pentatonic scale under your fingers all over the neck - commonly split into 5 'positions' - so that you can slip between positions easily and thus move up and down the neck fluidly.

If you look at the pentatonic scale, there are five notes from the major/minor diatonic scale and the same relationship between major and 'relative minor' as the full diatonic scale.

C major and A minor share the same notes (the white keys on the piano keyboard) just starting from a different note - C D E F G A B (C major) or A B C D E F G (A minor)

I guess most people default to the Minor Pentatonic Scale    - eg. A Minor Pentatonic   A C D E G

The relative Major Pentatonic Scale would be -                              C Major Pentatonic   C D E G A

(So the A Minor Pentatonic Scale and the C Major Pentatonic Scale share exactly the same notes - just as the A Minor Scale and the C Major Scale share exactly the same notes)

Now, THE MODES (cue foreboding music)

There are 7 modes of the major/minor diatonic scale and they all have strange greek names -

Ionian  Dorian  Phrygian  Lydian  Mixolydian  Aeolian  Locrian

For the purpose of this discussion, forget about the Locrian Mode as it's the 'weird one' and isn't too common in most music listened to by most people in the west (it has a flattened fifth which makes it the modal black sheep of the family).

Which leaves us six remaining modes - three major (ie they have a major third) and three minor (minor third)

Ionian  Lydian  Mixolydian    are major modes

Aeolian  Dorian  Phrygian      are minor modes

These modes are all seven note scales but the three major modes all share five notes (only two vary) and the three minor modes all share five notes (again, only two vary).

Hang on! Five notes?

Pentatonic means 'five tones' doesn't it?

That's right, the three major modes all share the notes of the Major Pentatonic Scale. The three minor modes all share the notes of the Minor Pentatonic Scale.

So, sticking with our A minor/C major white notes examples.

C Ionian is           C D E F G A B

C Lydian is          C D E F# G A B

C Mixolydian is   C D E F G A Bb

(C Major Pentatonic in bold)

A Aeolian is         A B C D E F G
A Dorian is           A B C D E F# G
A Phrygian is       A Bb C D E F G

(A Minor Pentatonic in bold)

So, if you know your pentatonic scales, all you need to do is fill in those three fret, tone-and-a-half gaps in the fingerings depending on the specific mode. These are the notes which define the 'sound' of a particular mode (beyond the basic major/minor tonality defined by the third).

For example, the 'sound' of A Phrygian mode is defined firstly by the root note (A), secondly by the third (C, 'minor') and finally by the flattened second (Bb).

In the same way, Dorian is a minor mode defined by the major sixth, Lydian is a major mode defined by its sharpened fourth, Mixolydian is a major mode defined by its flattened seventh. This is all relative to the diatonic C major/A minor scale. Ionian mode is the same as the major scale, Aeolian the same as the (natural) minor scale.

Of course there's still the need for hours of practice and repetition to get the fretboard shapes under your fingers but hopefully this helps some people break through the confusion. You do need know your pentatonic shapes first though.

PAL

Try playing something different to what you normally play that will require you to step outside the pentatonic scale.
  Listen to a different type of music than you usually do and get inspired. Good luck.

viz

Another excellent thing to do is to play vocal melodies. Singers don’t tend to sing in pentatonics (unless you’re one of the singers in The Pentatonics); so just try to play vocal tunes. Like Freddie’s lines in We are the Champions, for example. Anything like that that has a decent choon. 

stickyfiddle

Melody melody melody.

Don't think in terms of scales and modes when you're playing. Just think of melodies that fit with the chords ahead of you and learn to play those. I'm not saying it's simple because you need a good ear for melody and a good ability to translate what's in your head into what's under your fingers but it's the best way to learn 

And to get there the best way is to learn other people's melodies - vocals, solos, bass lines, horn parts, classical stuff - ANYTHING. Take it, chunk it down into smaller parts and learn it by ear. It's honestly the only way to really get there.

roberty

@guitars4you I know what you mean about backing tracks. They are fun to noodle over but it's hard to stay inspired for 10 solid minutes. A good solo should tell a story to coin ba cliche. You don't get any sense of song development or narrative with a looping backing track

jpfamps

viz said:

Another excellent thing to do is to play vocal melodies. Singers don’t tend to sing in pentatonics (unless you’re one of the singers in The Pentatonics); so just try to play vocal tunes. Like Freddie’s lines in We are the Champions, for example. Anything like that that has a decent choon. 

Jaco Pastorius recommended always learning the melody of the songs you are playing.

It's also unlikely that the vocal melody will be so fast / complex that it will be techniquely impossible for you to play.

It is worth pointing out that plenty of jazz standards employ pentatonic melody lines.

Springywheel

I had a bit of a breakthrough recently where I just wacked a backing track up and played the notes without thinking of patterns....usually I'd be like ''ok, phrygian in E...12th fret, third CAGED pattern" and blitz my way through that..... ok so that may be a quick way to get anchored....but try working your way horizontally across the neck without thinking too much of patterns, but instead use your ear to 'hear as you play'; you'll slowly over time start forging a connection between your ear, fingers and the intervallic relationship between all the notes. I'm no expert at this and occasionally i will refer back to CAGED to regain my bearings - but im slowly getting better. Don't worry about bogging yourself down with chord tones and complex theory for now; you know what sounds good. Later on you can figure out why it sounds good (because this is the third of that backing chord, this is a fifth etc.). I'd start by dedicating a week or so to just improvising in each mode - have fun with it and don't be in a rush to 'get good'.  Don't sweat about hitting the 'wrong' note - there's a saying about only being a half step away from the right one...this is true in most cases. Also don't think about 'escaping' the blues scale, but rather 'expand' upon it - you can easily go from blues minor for example, to phrygian, natural minor and dorian. Blues provides a great foundation for exploring other musical avenues.  

HAL9000

…and watch this…

https://youtu.be/zSTAvmXG5m8

stufisher

This thread is brilliant ... so much good input.

I don't suffer from being bored with anything I just change my perspective. So, when I've reached saturation with blues backing tracks, scales, modes, etc I stop playing electric guitar for a couple of days and play acoustic, maybe with drop D or DADGAD or open tunings and slide.

A change is as good as a rest they say. I find the reeducation of my fingers, brain, posture, picking style and obviously choice of music works wonders so when I return to play rock guitar leads etc. I am totally refreshed.

I also never really try and learn a song or solo note perfect ... I agree with comments about imagining what it would sound like for the first time ... it's truly liberating. Fingers do find the rights frets, shapes, strings, bends, effects etc. but very rarely first time. It's great fun and inevitably it leads you to cultivate your own style.

BTW ... I am still totally crap ... but I'm also fearless in my approach to having a go at anything. I WILL improve and I know this so I never think too much about it.

I love guitar me !