Help me to escape the bloody blues scale!!!!!!

relic245

axisus said:. 

That just sounds way too advanced for anyone to keep in their head and retrieve on the fly! OK, I could understand maybe following a chord chart rather than guessing chords as they pop up, but to have in any given moment the notes of that chord in your head, then use them in real-time AND make it sound good, I just can't comprehend that!?!?

Agreed and that is what keeps many players (myself included) stuck for a long time. 

I got the theory but the problem was that I could also comprehend the amount of work involved to internalise it and it scared me. 

What I didn't realise is that you don't need to know all of it!

Even just a tiny amount will take you ahead of where you are now. 

I first learned the notes on the fretboard. This took about a month of 10 minutes a day. 1 string at a time going round the circle of 5ths in both directions until I could instantly to to a C or F# or whatever on any string. 

From there I learned where the 3rd and 5th were in relation to that and started targeting them and at the same time being consiously aware that I was. That was quite a big deal if I'm honest but like most things got easier. 

The I added more notes, one a  time over a period of weeks and even months (this is ongoing for me as I'm not there yet) 

But it does get easier. Once you know where you 5th is you already know where your b6 is as it's 1 fret higher. You just have to practice it until you wire it in. 

For me that "I want to know it all now" mindset really did (and still does) hold me back.  I guess I'd love to be a master of the modes without putting in the flying hours but sadly that approach didn't work in the last 40 or so years so I'm gradually doing the work now. 

rocktron

Sorry, I removed this post!!!

On second thoughts, I didn't think shredding met the requirements of the OP.

Dominic

axisus said:

Danny1969 said:

....  knowing what chords you are soloing over and what notes are contained in those chords. 

That just sounds way too advanced for anyone to keep in their head and retrieve on the fly! OK, I could understand maybe following a chord chart rather than guessing chords as they pop up, but to have in any given moment the notes of that chord in your head, then use them in real-time AND make it sound good, I just can't comprehend that!?!?

It's also about ear training ........of course it's almost impossible to take an unfamiliar song and instantly suss out the underlying chords and translate those through your fingers on the fly 
BUT,BUT,BUT
Once you understand song structure and your ear picks it up quick you can almost predict the next chord or sequence of chords especially as many are cliches or well known progressions ....especially in pop ,rock,country, trad Jazz 
You will know quickly what key you are in ........you will know the style of music 
Once your ear has been tuned in to certain sounds you will pick up on the chord extensions/complexities 
Ask yourself this ;
Does your know what a Major 7 sounds like ?
Does your ear know what a Dominant 7 sounds like ?
Once heard you cannot mistake the sound of an half diminished .....
Do you recognise the sound of a simple major dropping to the minor of the same chord ie the sound of flattening a 3rd 
Spend an hour strumming a 2,5,1( you already know what a 1,4,5 sounds like )  ......your ear will never forget it
it's a typical overused progression ......you will hear so many songs in your head 
then see if you can arpeggiate it
Mix these in with your Pentatonics appropriately and a huge vocabulary will open up just from that 

axisus

About time to say thanks all for the input, loads of good ideas! I'm copying all the good stuff into a Word file for reference. No excuses this time!

Flink_Poyd

Something I like doing is playing over a drone track. Youtube has loads of them with different instruments. If youre using backing tracks they can tend to keep you in that style/box/feeling. Having the space to noodle around without worrying about hitting chord changes frees you up a bit and even though you might revert back to the old habits/blues scale theyll sound a bit different.

octatonic

axisus said:

Danny1969 said:

....  knowing what chords you are soloing over and what notes are contained in those chords. 

That just sounds way too advanced for anyone to keep in their head and retrieve on the fly! OK, I could understand maybe following a chord chart rather than guessing chords as they pop up, but to have in any given moment the notes of that chord in your head, then use them in real-time AND make it sound good, I just can't comprehend that!?!?

This is why it takes years, it is also why you need to play slowly.
It isn't too advanced- you can do it if you approach it properly.
Start with a blues in A.

A, D and E7.

The chord tones are this:

A:    A C# E
D :    D F# A
E7:   E G# B D

The thing to concentrate on first is the turnaround, which is a I V7.
So you are going from A C# E to E G# B D.
Play these as arpeggios to a backing track and notice how the chord changes.

Or look at a ii V I in C:

Dm7: DFAC
G7: GBDF
Cmaj7: CEGB

When playing a ii V I you break it down to two chord changes, the ii to the V and then the V to the I

So play Dm7 (DFAC) as an arpeggio (to a backing track) and transition to V (GBDF).
Notice that two of the notes are common to each chord.

Then play V I as a backing track:
G7: GBDF to Cmaj7: CEGB.
Notice that two of the notes are common to each chord too.

Think about what is the 3rd and 7th of each chord too.
G7's are B and F, Cmaj7's are E and B.
These are the important notes.
Hold on.... the B is common to both, right? Yes.
In a V I the 3rd of the V chord is the 7th of the I chord.

These are two fairly simple examples- but start there.
Once you have this down you can expand.
If you can't do this then other stuff will be too hard.

It all needs to be done very very slowly.
Half the speed you think, mostly likely.
Or slower.

DLM

Fix for above post to avoid confusion:

octatonic said:

Or look at a ii V I in C:

octatonic

Yes, a typo.

guitarjack66

Just to add a smidge to this discussion,I had no idea that in rock/pop etc,that slash chords are often used in place of diminished chords? 

KevS

OK...Grab yer position 1 Pentatonic Minor Shape...

Look on it as a Picture frame..

in That Frame by adding 2 notes,,
you can get Dorian ,Phrygian or Aeolian / Natural Minor

So the A Pentatonic Minor is present in A Dorian,, A Phrygian and A Aeolian..

add 2 and 6 for Dorian,,add Flat 2 and Flat 6 for Phrygian and 2 and  flat 6 for Aelian..

Then Grab Yer Position 1 Major Pentatonic,,same as Position 2 Minor Pentatonic..

Look on it as a picture Frame.

Add 2 and 6 you get a Major / Ionian...From there sharpen your fourth and you get Lydian..
Or flatten the 7th in you Major you get Mixolydian..

So A Pentatonic major is present in A Major,,A Lydian and A Mixolydian..

You can play around or across chords...
So say you are playing against C  A minor F G..
You can play a C Major Scale against this..
If you are Playing against C A7 F G.
You will need to depart from that..

So You can play,,  

An A Bluesy Lick or an A7 Arpeggio,,
I neglected arpeggios early on..
When playing around chords they are definitely handy and worth learning..
You can do much more with them too..

There are other options for the A7,,but that might muddle you just now..

OK play a B flat Diminished 7 arpeggio on the A7..
Hopefully that will spark some interest to learn what is happening and move beyond the Major Scale....

ToneControl

have you learned how to move from the blues minor scale into the related harmonic minor scale?
Usually it's at the end of a verse, on a certain chord. Santana does it a lot, and the Scorpions for example (as dop many others)

also listen to Steve Hillage, often very bouncy jolly solos

try soloing in major keys as well

KevS

Major 7 chord think Fluffy clouds..Gymnopedies by Erik Satie

Dominant 7 Think of a Bluesy Southern Gospel Choir of the Non White Ethnicity..

Minor 7th a bit more Sophisticated sounding,,it is a much less intense Minor..
Make your own little picture or connection..
It's also an inversion of a Major Six Chord,,learn the Arpeggio and get 2 for 1..

Minor 7 Flat 5 ,a Darker sounding Minor,,sometimes called Half Diminished
,,also an inversion of a Minor 6th Chord..
I connect it with Autumn Leaves,,
You can use it for substitutions of other stuff too..
Why learning Arpeggios is so useful and cool.. 

kelpbeds

Masses of resources on my Youtube channel with regard to getting out the pentatonic box, over a 100 videos pretty much centered around that topic!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw

axisus

kelpbeds said:

Masses of resources on my Youtube channel with regard to getting out the pentatonic box, over a 100 videos pretty much centered around that topic!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw

Thanks, I'll take a look!

kelpbeds

axisus said:

kelpbeds said:

Masses of resources on my Youtube channel with regard to getting out the pentatonic box, over a 100 videos pretty much centered around that topic!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw

Thanks, I'll take a look!

No worries, i'm sure it will really help you!

Ridley

Or maybe you don't need to get out of pentatonic, just out of the box perhaps, interesting point by Phil X on this very subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cvTD_GV99w&ab_channel=PhilXOfficialFanClub

Scales starts up at 6:40

guitarjack66

kelpbeds said:

axisus said:

kelpbeds said:

Masses of resources on my Youtube channel with regard to getting out the pentatonic box, over a 100 videos pretty much centered around that topic!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw

Thanks, I'll take a look!

No worries, i'm sure it will really help you!

Just subscribed. Will take a better look later today.

kelpbeds

guitarjack66 said:

kelpbeds said:

axisus said:

kelpbeds said:

Masses of resources on my Youtube channel with regard to getting out the pentatonic box, over a 100 videos pretty much centered around that topic!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw

Thanks, I'll take a look!

No worries, i'm sure it will really help you!

Just subscribed. Will take a better look later today.

Great stuff! 

Ddigger

Ridley said:

Or maybe you don't need to get out of pentatonic, just out of the box perhaps, interesting point by Phil X on this very subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cvTD_GV99w&ab_channel=PhilXOfficialFanClub

Scales starts up at 6:40

FretJam is a useful site and free...

Their latest lesson is on...

Alternate Pentatonic Scales - Phrasing Pathways

https://www.fretjam.com/different-pentatonic-scales.html

guitarjack66

Ddigger said:

Ridley said:

Or maybe you don't need to get out of pentatonic, just out of the box perhaps, interesting point by Phil X on this very subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cvTD_GV99w&ab_channel=PhilXOfficialFanClub

Scales starts up at 6:40

FretJam is a useful site and free...

Their latest lesson is on...

Alternate Pentatonic Scales - Phrasing Pathways

https://www.fretjam.com/different-pentatonic-scales.html

Fretjam,Samjam and Fret Science are very useful youtube channels. Fret Science is quite new but looks promising.