NAD - 50 years old but still looks like a teenager... now with Modulus Amps cabinet

ICBM

DartmoorHedgehog said:

I'm not sure it's just valve either.  I played bass for a couple of years through an old Peavey 80 watt (I believe) solid-state 15" combo - we weren't a quiet band, rarely miced up, and it was well up to the job.  With modern bass amps anything under 300W seems to be considered weedy.

Yes, I’ve used a Peavey Century 100W head with the same band and a similar cabinet, and it was loud enough too, although also not properly clean at that volume.

Modern amps just don’t seem to deliver the power in the same way - I’ve got a little Promethean which is rated at 500W, and although nice-sounding and very light - the whole combo with a 10” speaker weighs less than the Bassman head - even through the big cab it’s *not as loud*.

Just how? Even though I understand some of the reasons and I was expecting the old Fender to do very well considering the almost laughably low power rating, I was still shocked by the result - this is real-world experience which just doesn’t seem to agree with the theory at all. It’s not just rose-tinted specs for me with a new toy either, the whole band were full of praise for it.

I might actually want to start carrying it to rehearsals… having slightly rolled my eyes at the guitarist for doing that for years when there are perfectly usable amps there already .

rpr

I think that the old cab/speaker bass set ups caused a lot of the fattiness. Modern day tech tech - ported cabs, strengthened speakers, etc can handle those frequencies much better.

Jonathangus

ICBM said:

I might actually want to start carrying it to rehearsals… having slightly rolled my eyes at the guitarist for doing that for years when there are perfectly usable amps there already .

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Deluxe-Adjustable-Equipment-Trolley-by-Gear4music/1I8W

ElectricXII

DartmoorHedgehog said: 

ICBM said:

Anyone who thinks that 'low powered' valve bass amps are out of date in a modern context - and I admit to being one of them before tonight - is wrong..

I'm not sure it's just valve either.  I played bass for a couple of years through an old Peavey 80 watt (I believe) solid-state 15" combo - we weren't a quiet band, rarely miced up, and it was well up to the job.  With modern bass amps anything under 300W seems to be considered weedy.

If that was a Peavey TKO 80, then I had one too, back in the early 90s. I replaced it with a T-Max head and cab after a gig at Sneaky Pete's in Edinburgh during which I couldn't hear myself at all. Gigs were louder then I suppose, as my poor ears still attest, and I bet that old combo would do fine for many club gigs these days.

ICBM

Jonathangus said:

I have actually got a sack trolley… I did consider taking it, but it seemed excessive for just a head. In the event it wasn’t too finger-straining from one street away.

I’m thinking of getting a shoulder bag for it, in fact - I think it will fit in a typical large sports bag. That would save buying a new cover for it - the original is a bit fragile (and valuable).

DartmoorHedgehog

ElectricXII said:

DartmoorHedgehog said: 

ICBM said:

Anyone who thinks that 'low powered' valve bass amps are out of date in a modern context - and I admit to being one of them before tonight - is wrong..

I'm not sure it's just valve either.  I played bass for a couple of years through an old Peavey 80 watt (I believe) solid-state 15" combo - we weren't a quiet band, rarely miced up, and it was well up to the job.  With modern bass amps anything under 300W seems to be considered weedy.

If that was a Peavey TKO 80, then I had one too, back in the early 90s. I replaced it with a T-Max head and cab after a gig at Sneaky Pete's in Edinburgh during which I couldn't hear myself at all. Gigs were louder then I suppose, as my poor ears still attest, and I bet that old combo would do fine for many club gigs these days.

I think it was a TKO 80, yes. We weren't playing anywhere big, just pubs, and I never felt it wasn't loud enough. Whether it was the "best" bass sound in the world is subjective, but volume-wise it was fine. Actually I think our current bassist's combo is "only" 150W (but to be fair we're micing up or DI-ing the bass in a lot more places now).

p90fool

When everyone else I knew had Trace Elliots I was gigging my fretless Wal Custom through a '77 Marshall 100w Superbass with matching 4x12 and it was absolutely thunderous, and like your Fender, totally effortless to dial in. 

It would be perfectly possible to replicate it in a lightweight miniature head, Tonemaster-style, but you'd need a thousand little mincy modern Watts. 

Yorkie

Congratulations, John! That’s an incredible amp to have. 

DartmoorHedgehog

p90fool said:

It would be perfectly possible to replicate it in a lightweight miniature head, Tonemaster-style, but you'd need a thousand little mincy modern Watts. 

Ah there's the problem - we hadn't noticed modern amps are rated in mmW

ICBM

Yorkie said:

Congratulations, John! That’s an incredible amp to have. 

It is - and I'm almost embarrassed to admit how long it took me to really decide to buy it now. I *wanted* it as soon as I saw Schmo's listing , but I was trying to be sensible - thinking that I was buying a very nice home or at best recording amp, which I didn't really need, for quite a lot of money. What I didn't reckon on was that it would be entirely usable as a small gig amp as well.

DartmoorHedgehog said:

p90fool said:

It would be perfectly possible to replicate it in a lightweight miniature head, Tonemaster-style, but you'd need a thousand little mincy modern Watts.

Ah there's the problem - we hadn't noticed modern amps are rated in mmW

I'm still shocked at the difference, to be honest - I'm all for modern technology, light weight and efficiency, and had thought valve (bass especially) amps were becoming a bit of a dinosaur... but the difference in performance is huge. I admit that if I needed a strictly clean bass sound then it would be a bit different - but I don't, for this band.

randella

DartmoorHedgehog said:

p90fool said:

It would be perfectly possible to replicate it in a lightweight miniature head, Tonemaster-style, but you'd need a thousand little mincy modern Watts. 

Ah there's the problem - we hadn't noticed modern amps are rated in mmW

I've got a couple of 100W valve guitar heads I've been messing around with. One's a Marshall MA100 and if it's 100W it's putting out, I'm a Dutchman. 

The other is a Laney VH100R which is putting out substantially more if the overworked fan in my Torpedo load is anything to go by, and it's doing it on a very tired set of EL34s. 

So here's my rule of thumb. If the you can plonk the chassis upside down on your workbench without removing the power valves then it's a winner.

I admit my electronics background is low-voltage logic stuff and I'm only now getting to grips with valves .

DartmoorHedgehog

ICBM said:

I'm still shocked at the difference, to be honest - I'm all for modern technology, light weight and efficiency, and had thought valve (bass especially) amps were becoming a bit of a dinosaur... but the difference in performance is huge. I admit that if I needed a strictly clean bass sound then it would be a bit different - but I don't, for this band.

Mind you, if amps were rated by power _consumption_ the valve amp would probably look far "more powerful" than the modern one.  If there was just some sort of "loud enough for a given use" scale then a modern "five piece funk band with horn section" amp would consume less power than a valve "five piece funk band with horn section" amp. But when they call the modern one "500W" and the valve one "50W" it makes the modern one look weedy for its rating.

randella

I still remember the ludicrous peak power claims beloved of car stereo manufacturers in the '80s.

"Yeah this tiny £50 box that draws 2A from a 12VDC supply is deffo capable of putting out more power than Motorhead's entire backline."

ICBM

DartmoorHedgehog said:

Mind you, if amps were rated by power _consumption_ the valve amp would probably look far "more powerful" than the modern one.  If there was just some sort of "loud enough for a given use" scale then a modern "five piece funk band with horn section" amp would consume less power than a valve "five piece funk band with horn section" amp. But when they call the modern one "500W" and the valve one "50W" it makes the modern one look weedy for its rating.

Yes, but if you go by the actual measured power output, the 50W valve amp is really only producing 50W at the point of clipping and the modern solid-state Class D amp really could be producing 500W - it's just that this does not translate into perceived volume in the same way at all.

This is why I think the idea that valve amps are ‘inefficient’ and Class D solid-state ones ‘efficient’ is not as straightforward as it first appears - yes, a valve amp can often draw four or five times the power of its rated output (ie 20-25% efficient, in electrical terms) and a Class D/SMPS solid-state amp can be as high as 80-90% efficient… but if you need ten times as much rated power from the Class D to produce the same real-world *volume*, which is actually more efficient?

It does also depend on the proportion of usage time the amp is producing power, too - the idle power of a valve amp is quite high, whereas that of a Class D/SMPS is very low… so there isn’t a simple answer. If you’re looking at the amount of power consumed during a typical gig set, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s pretty close to the same.

1Strat2many

Congratulations @ICBM on buying a really nice classic Fender Amp. The early to mid 70s Silverfaces are actually my favourite period for Fenders and I still own a good few of them. From my own experience the sound, build quality and reliability of the ones I have owned and used over 53 years of gigging is, for me, unsurpassed. I hope you have many years of enjoyable use from it.

randella

1Strat2many said:

Congratulations @ICBM on buying a really nice classic Fender Amp. The early to mid 70s Silverfaces are actually my favourite period for Fenders and I still own a good few of them. From my own experience the sound, build quality and reliability of the ones I have owned and used over 53 years of gigging is, for me, unsurpassed. I hope you have many years of enjoyable use from it.

I've been looking at silver panel Fenders as a birth-year purchase. A later 70's Super? Don't mind if I do. Twin? Deluxe? Bassman?

If my marriage goes tits I know where to start at least. 

ICBM

1Strat2many said:

Congratulations @ICBM on buying a really nice classic Fender Amp. The early to mid 70s Silverfaces are actually my favourite period for Fenders and I still own a good few of them. From my own experience the sound, build quality and reliability of the ones I have owned and used over 53 years of gigging is, for me, unsurpassed. I hope you have many years of enjoyable use from it.

Thank you - I already know this one is a keeper, quite possibly an amp for life - that was partly why I bought it. While the modern bass amps I have are light, good-sounding and flexible, they are also complex and could be hard to repair if they go wrong - especially if it's further in the future. Switch-mode power supplies, Class D power sections and preamps with surface-mount components, while not completely unrepairable, can be very difficult, and any PCB damage makes things harder still.

But as long as valves, capacitors and resistors can be obtained then a hand-wired Fender amp will always be serviceable.

suitablyswell

Really glad that Bassman 50 found a good home with you @ICBM ;, I was far too tempted myself! I used to use a silverface with a 2x15" cab for a time - with a guitar - and it was utterly monstrous. Even a 2x12" was *plenty* loud enough in a very loud quintet that was constantly asked to turn down in almost every venue we ever played. 

Loobs

V nice.

ICBM

Modulus Amps cab on order too .