I know the world is a bit crazy lately but WTF...?

swiller

robgilmo said:

swiller said:

Another reason why i like ricky gervais... who sums it up perfectly.
"If you enjoy seeing an animal terrified or in pain, you are a cunt".

Thats pretty much most of us then? Even a true vegan will chuck insectacides at their house plant to get a hold on the fungus gnat infestation, or boron to kill ants in their kitchen, poison for rats and glue for mice, and lets not get started on frying house flies on an electrified grid and wasps, well, anyway you can with wasps.

No, I think there is a massive distinction between enjoyment of seeing something terrorised and it being for a purpose. I hope 99% of people would not get off on watching a fly zap into a bright light in a fish and chip shop, but see it as an unfortunate way of protecting the risk of getting sick as a result of eating the food in a fly infested cooking area.
Do you enjoy watching the fungus gnat infestation die? I dont. 

darthed1981

robgilmo said:

No,what I meant was killing an animal for fun or killing one because it wandered into your kitchen, I dont think the reason matters much to the animal, its still being murdered in its eyes and one reason above another does not make it right.

Or, are we suggesting that if we get no fun or amusement from killing an animal then its ok?

Killing animals humanely for food is OK, albeit we need to move to a more plant based diet for sustainability.

Killing pests like rats and mice which can spread diseases as humanely as possible is necessary.

Torturing animals to hear them scream, burning them alive, putting them in blenders, and making things that people called universally sickening for fun, is completely different and fucking sick.

There is no basis for comparison at all.

robgilmo

swiller said:

robgilmo said:

swiller said:

Another reason why i like ricky gervais... who sums it up perfectly.
"If you enjoy seeing an animal terrified or in pain, you are a cunt".

Thats pretty much most of us then? Even a true vegan will chuck insectacides at their house plant to get a hold on the fungus gnat infestation, or boron to kill ants in their kitchen, poison for rats and glue for mice, and lets not get started on frying house flies on an electrified grid and wasps, well, anyway you can with wasps.

No, I think there is a massive distinction between enjoyment of seeing something terrorised and it being for a purpose. I hope 99% of people would not get off on watching a fly zap into a bright light in a fish and chip shop, but see it as an unfortunate way of protecting the risk of getting sick as a result of eating the food in a fly infested cooking area.
Do you enjoy watching the fungus gnat infestation die? I dont. 

No, I control fungus gnats by letting my plant soil dry out, I control flies by taking away their food source and making my home as far from their natural habitat as possible.

My point is killing for our own personal necessity (when mostly unnecessary) , as far as the animal is concerned, might not be any different than killing for fun, the animal wont know why its being killed. We however think it's Ok because, hey, fish and chips and fungus gnats are simply annoying.

robgilmo

Here is something to think about, a man buys a glue trap to catch mice, a horrible, slow and painful death, films it, posts on facebook for all to watch, possibly to get likes? why isnt he arrested? Because its normalised in some way? because they are mice and not monkeys? because we can pick and choose our moral outrage? because killing mice in a glue trap isnt (as far as I know) illegal?


https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=129858226812973

Kittyfrisk

robgilmo said:

Here is something to think about, a man buys a glue trap to catch mice, a horrible, slow and painful death, films it, posts on facebook for all to watch, possibly to get likes? why isnt he arrested? Because its normalised in some way? because they are mice and not monkeys? because we can pick and choose our moral outrage? because killing mice in a glue trap isnt (as far as I know) illegal?


https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=129858226812973

Glue rodent traps are unpleasant, potentially cruel but may be acceptable in situations where no other controls are effective but may still be still needed.
In these situations, there is no element of animal cruelty or torture for human gratification as in the example that I posted about.
Filming it, posting it.. then you are as sick as the cunt that is in the initial post. 
I think you are doing some microtome thin slicing of philosophical points here, rather than concentrating on the basic right/wrong situation.

Offset

Just wow.  Can't believe there's any serious dissent against the condemnation of the arseholes who perpetrate this kind of barbarity.

swiller

robgilmo said:

swiller said:

robgilmo said:

swiller said:

Another reason why i like ricky gervais... who sums it up perfectly.
"If you enjoy seeing an animal terrified or in pain, you are a cunt".

Thats pretty much most of us then? Even a true vegan will chuck insectacides at their house plant to get a hold on the fungus gnat infestation, or boron to kill ants in their kitchen, poison for rats and glue for mice, and lets not get started on frying house flies on an electrified grid and wasps, well, anyway you can with wasps.

No, I think there is a massive distinction between enjoyment of seeing something terrorised and it being for a purpose. I hope 99% of people would not get off on watching a fly zap into a bright light in a fish and chip shop, but see it as an unfortunate way of protecting the risk of getting sick as a result of eating the food in a fly infested cooking area.
Do you enjoy watching the fungus gnat infestation die? I dont. 

No, I control fungus gnats by letting my plant soil dry out, I control flies by taking away their food source and making my home as far from their natural habitat as possible.

My point is killing for our own personal necessity (when mostly unnecessary) , as far as the animal is concerned, might not be any different than killing for fun, the animal wont know why its being killed. We however think it's Ok because, hey, fish and chips and fungus gnats are simply annoying.

I thought your point was thats pretty much most of us then, in response to the gervais quote. My point is that it isnt most of us, at all, and we both seem to be examples of that exception along with all of the different participants of this thread.

robgilmo

swiller said:

robgilmo said:

swiller said:

robgilmo said:

swiller said:

Another reason why i like ricky gervais... who sums it up perfectly.
"If you enjoy seeing an animal terrified or in pain, you are a cunt".

Thats pretty much most of us then? Even a true vegan will chuck insectacides at their house plant to get a hold on the fungus gnat infestation, or boron to kill ants in their kitchen, poison for rats and glue for mice, and lets not get started on frying house flies on an electrified grid and wasps, well, anyway you can with wasps.

No, I think there is a massive distinction between enjoyment of seeing something terrorised and it being for a purpose. I hope 99% of people would not get off on watching a fly zap into a bright light in a fish and chip shop, but see it as an unfortunate way of protecting the risk of getting sick as a result of eating the food in a fly infested cooking area.
Do you enjoy watching the fungus gnat infestation die? I dont. 

No, I control fungus gnats by letting my plant soil dry out, I control flies by taking away their food source and making my home as far from their natural habitat as possible.

My point is killing for our own personal necessity (when mostly unnecessary) , as far as the animal is concerned, might not be any different than killing for fun, the animal wont know why its being killed. We however think it's Ok because, hey, fish and chips and fungus gnats are simply annoying.

I thought your point was thats pretty much most of us then, in response to the gervais quote. My point is that it isnt most of us, at all, and we both seem to be examples of that exception along with all of the different participants of this thread.

I do think we are the minority, but then I am a glass half empty type anyway and I dont have much faith in us as a species, our reasons for killing out of necessity seems to be a matter of opinion, so many questions with so many different answers but the reality is we just shouldnt, maybe only to put something out of its misery. We even kill other humans out of what we believe to be a necessity but again thats down to opinion of wither its necessary or not. Innocent people get killed in a war, its war and it happens and its shocking and yet we still do it by choice and dont seem to have a problem going into another war knowing innocent people will get killed, innocent people get killed by a mad shooter in a night club and thats somehow different and it should never happen again etc etc, but it isnt any different at all.

robgilmo

Kittyfrisk said:

robgilmo said:

Here is something to think about, a man buys a glue trap to catch mice, a horrible, slow and painful death, films it, posts on facebook for all to watch, possibly to get likes? why isnt he arrested? Because its normalised in some way? because they are mice and not monkeys? because we can pick and choose our moral outrage? because killing mice in a glue trap isnt (as far as I know) illegal?


https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=129858226812973

Glue rodent traps are unpleasant, potentially cruel but may be acceptable in situations where no other controls are effective but may still be still needed.
In these situations, there is no element of animal cruelty or torture for human gratification as in the example that I posted about.
Filming it, posting it.. then you are as sick as the cunt that is in the initial post. 
I think you are doing some microtome thin slicing of philosophical points here, rather than concentrating on the basic right/wrong situation.

Glue traps are horrific, they are cruel and unnacceptable, I cant think of one situation where they are the only solution nor can I think of one situation where a humane trap could not be used except maybe cost, easy to use, something that only the human using the trap would benefit from.
The basic right/wrong situation is that killing an animal for whatever reason when it can be avoided is wrong.

Kittyfrisk

robgilmo said:

Kittyfrisk said:

robgilmo said:

Here is something to think about, a man buys a glue trap to catch mice, a horrible, slow and painful death, films it, posts on facebook for all to watch, possibly to get likes? why isnt he arrested? Because its normalised in some way? because they are mice and not monkeys? because we can pick and choose our moral outrage? because killing mice in a glue trap isnt (as far as I know) illegal?


https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=129858226812973

Glue rodent traps are unpleasant, potentially cruel but may be acceptable in situations where no other controls are effective but may still be still needed.
In these situations, there is no element of animal cruelty or torture for human gratification as in the example that I posted about.
Filming it, posting it.. then you are as sick as the cunt that is in the initial post. 
I think you are doing some microtome thin slicing of philosophical points here, rather than concentrating on the basic right/wrong situation.

Glue traps are horrific, they are cruel and unnacceptable, I cant think of one situation where they are the only solution nor can I think of one situation where a humane trap could not be used except maybe cost, easy to use, something that only the human using the trap would benefit from.
The basic right/wrong situation is that killing an animal for whatever reason when it can be avoided is wrong.

Glue traps are horrific, they are cruel and unnacceptable.
Are they any different or less acceptable than a so called 'humane' trap where the animal can be left, not immediately killed, without access to food or water until you can get round to killing/releasing/dispatching it?
With both types, supervision & a humane (discuss later... ) method used to kill the captive animal is required.
For some reason you seem to be swerving away from the essentially shitty human behaviours mentioned in my original thread.

Petepassion

There are various levels of ‘acceptance’ when it comes to killing an animal.
    The thread is clearly about a sadistic act upon helpless animals for the pleasure of others…clearly fucking sick and not one person here is going to argue that, at least I sincerely hope not.
   

    Regarding killing animals for food or infection management, etc, well that’s a very different topic.

Timcito

darthed1981 said:

Torturing animals to hear them scream, burning them alive, putting them in blenders, and making things that people called universally sickening for fun, is completely different and fucking sick.

I wonder if there is any connection between such enjoyment and the enjoyment some people experience while watching really violent gore movies like Saw or one which I think was called Hotel, in which people are horrifically tortured and mutilated. I've never understood how anyone could like movies like these, yet many do. Perhaps those same people wouldn't mind seeing an animal tortured. After all, they enjoy the imagery of human beings experiencing excruciating and disfiguring pain; it might add a little tabasco to see an animal suffering the real thing. This may explain the market for these 'Crush' movies.  

Petepassion

Timcito said:

darthed1981 said:

Torturing animals to hear them scream, burning them alive, putting them in blenders, and making things that people called universally sickening for fun, is completely different and fucking sick.

I wonder if there is any connection between such enjoyment and the enjoyment some people experience while watching really violent gore movies like Saw or one which I think was called Hotel, in which people are horrifically tortured and mutilated. I've never understood how anyone could like movies like these, yet many do. Perhaps those same people wouldn't mind seeing an animal tortured. After all, they enjoy the imagery of human beings experiencing excruciating and disfiguring pain; it might add a little tabasco to see an animal suffering the real thing. This may explain the market for these 'Crush' movies.  

I have watched those movies and far worse. 

   I can’t explain it, but there is some kind of fascination with the macabre. The difference is knowing when to stop, understanding the difference between fascination, curiosity and acting upon it.
   This is very much part of the human condition, dealing with the contradictions we are born with. It’s an uncomfortable conversation for many, but if not addressed could possibly lead down a very dark path

darthed1981

I have to admit to disliking the early 2000s craze for "torture porn" movies as well, especially the Saw series, always found them shit.

Hostel was particularly nasty and a bit relevant, that involved people being tricked into getting captured and then horrifically tortured to death.  It's main strength was how believable it was, you could easily believe the rich would happily pay to torture some poor teenager to death.

Why do all the fuckers have yachts?  International waters, no law enforcement, that's why...

Petepassion

If my memory serves me correctly…and it may not, ironically, the Saw movies were about retribution, the very stuff we can read on this thread and other threads. A perverse mirror held up to us to show our ugly side and what we are capable of.
   Having said that, it’s just as likely to be some psychopathic film maker revelling in gore.

viz

The key word in the Gervais quote is ‘enjoy’. (‘Killing’, ‘animals’, and ‘cunt’ are obviously up there too). It’s a statement about the people, not about the animal. It has absolutely nothing to do with farming, pest control, etc. 

darthed1981

Petepassion said:

If my memory serves me correctly…and it may not, ironically, the Saw movies were about retribution, the very stuff we can read on this thread and other threads. A perverse mirror held up to us to show our ugly side and what we are capable of.
   Having said that, it’s just as likely to be some psychopathic film maker revelling in gore.

Wasn't the tag more "appreciate and value your life"?  Didn't Jigsaw have a habit of punishing people who didn't with escapes requiring huge sacrifice or pain, but were ultimately survivable?

As I said, possibly the first film had some merit, but as with most horror franchises diminishing returns set in more quickly than frostbite on an Antarctic skinny-dip.

Now if you want to see Vigilantism.. watch any superhero movie.

hollywoodrox

DONT READ IT , DONT BE TEMPTED ITS NOT GOOD 

hollywoodrox

Objectively I would like these people to be locked away & never see daylight again.
  Subjectively I’d like to give them a double tap to the head as it’s a very emotionally stirring act that is deeply disturbing . These people are broken & have no place in a civilised society . But for us to remain a civilised society it is our duty to lock them away for ever or until they can be cured of such heinous desires if at all possible , one would hope that a small neurological procedure in future could target such a thing  but even then that would open procedures up for abuse in the future under say a totalitarian state. The whole thing is deeply disturbing & I feel for the people who have to investigate & police this

snowblind

PolarityMan said:

Humanity is just a disgrace sometimes.

Only sometimes?