Amplifying an "average" electro-acoustic

strtdv

I've a bottom of the range Furch grand auditorium with a cedar top and laminate mahogany sides.
It sounds fine, not massively inspiring but I'm not a brilliant acoustic player so it does the job.
It has a Fishman Matrix Infinity fitted, which again does the job of allowing me to plug in and amplify through FOH/PA as needed.

The signal goes Guitar->DI box->Mixing desk.

The piezo quack is very noticeable, and I was wondering if in this age of digital modelling where I can do a reasonable impression of most electric guitar amplifiers with my Helix whether there was a smaller/simpler/cheaper equivalent to allow me to get a more "natural" sound out of a piezo equipped electro-acoustic guitar?

I'd rather avoid going down the line of replacing the under saddle pickup as it's a reasonably cheap guitar and spending another £300 on an LR Baggs Anthem or similar seems excessive, and at least if I had a pedal of some sort I'd presumably be able to easily use it on any electro-acoustic guitar.

Does this sort of thing exist? Or do I just need to live with the piezo quack?

ICBM

Boss AD-8.

I've got one and it does exactly what you want. It's relatively old now, not the latest technology, not too expensive, but does a great job of de-piezo-ing (if that's a word ) the sound from an electro-acoustic, as well as being a good preamp/EQ/tuner/reverb unit. Its only real disadvantage is that it's fairly large and heavy.

Although having just checked Ebay prices, I may not be the only one who rates it...

I didn't like the AD-10 - which replaced it - but luckily I hadn't sold the 8 before I got one to try.

TTony

strtdv said:

The piezo quack is very noticeable, and I was wondering if in this age of digital modelling where I can do a reasonable impression of most electric guitar amplifiers with my Helix whether there was a smaller/simpler/cheaper equivalent to allow me to get a more "natural" sound out of a piezo equipped electro-acoustic guitar?

Have you tried any IRs in your Helix (check 3sigma.com)?

Or just some of the other FX to tame the quack ...

strtdv

@TTony no I haven't tried it through the Helix yet.
I've had a quick look though and it looks like if I liked the IRs I could load them onto a much smaller pedal like the Mooer Radar (which I believe supports third party IRs), so I think it's definitely worth trying the Sigma IRs as they're by far the cheapest option and I can try it out on my current kit

TTony

NUX Optima Air or Stageman might be worth a look too.

Littlejonny

I know you said you don’t want to change the pick-up but the JourneyTek (K&K style) bridge plate piezo pick-up is incredibly good and it’s also very cheap at less than 50 quid. Installation is a breeze if you already have an endpin hole, which you do. Then you’ll want an EQ pedal to dip the 800hz and maybe some 200hz. It’s a killer setup.

BigLicks67

I have 3 acoustics, 2 with pickups and 1 without. The best results I get are with the 'unpickuped' guitar with a SM58 in front of it into a Fishman loudbox. Depends on how loud you need to be playing live as to whether this approach is possible.
Most pickups seem to me to be a lot of money spent for very little reward. 

strtdv

BigLicks67 said:

I have 3 acoustics, 2 with pickups and 1 without. The best results I get are with the 'unpickuped' guitar with a SM58 in front of it into a Fishman loudbox. Depends on how loud you need to be playing live as to whether this approach is possible.
Most pickups seem to me to be a lot of money spent for very little reward. 

I'm not disagreeing that in a studio situation etc direct micing is likely to give the best results, but as a play standing and tend to move about a bit I can imagine the sound guy getting annoyed with me. 

At the moment I'm basically looking at trying an acoustic IR on the helix and if that works well getting a smaller pedal to run the IR and use that (total cost £100-110) versus trying a good outboard preamp/effects unit eg Boss AD8/10 or Fishman ToneDEQ (cost from about £180-300), or switching pickup to a K&K mini with or without external preamp (£100 for the K&K mini, preamp anywhere from £100-350).
An outside option is to sell the guitar and buy an electro-acoustic that I like the sound of the fitted pickup (by far the most expensive option, likely to work out £600+ dearer than the next option, but new guitars are always nice)

strtdv

Well I bought the D45 impulse set from 3Sigma, and first impressions are not just good but actually slightly incredulous that my guitar can sound this good amplified!
There is one of the 10 impulses in particular that just fits the guitar and my preferred sound perfectly, I've done a tiny bit of EQ tweaking and added a little reverb, but even with the guitar straight into the IR I'm extremely impressed.

I'll use it live for now and then see if I get fed up lugging the Helix around and buy a small pedal that lets me load the IR I like best onto 

TTony

 

Littlejonny

strtdv said:

BigLicks67 said:

I have 3 acoustics, 2 with pickups and 1 without. The best results I get are with the 'unpickuped' guitar with a SM58 in front of it into a Fishman loudbox. Depends on how loud you need to be playing live as to whether this approach is possible.
Most pickups seem to me to be a lot of money spent for very little reward. 

I'm not disagreeing that in a studio situation etc direct micing is likely to give the best results, but as a play standing and tend to move about a bit I can imagine the sound guy getting annoyed with me. 

At the moment I'm basically looking at trying an acoustic IR on the helix and if that works well getting a smaller pedal to run the IR and use that (total cost £100-110) versus trying a good outboard preamp/effects unit eg Boss AD8/10 or Fishman ToneDEQ (cost from about £180-300), or switching pickup to a K&K mini with or without external preamp (£100 for the K&K mini, preamp anywhere from £100-350).
An outside option is to sell the guitar and buy an electro-acoustic that I like the sound of the fitted pickup (by far the most expensive option, likely to work out £600+ dearer than the next option, but new guitars are always nice)

Don’t get a K&K - get a JourneyTek. They’re half the price and sound twice as good. There’s also a mic add-on but it’s currently out of stock in UK.

 I’ve always found IRs a bit phasey and weird sounding in a live situation but maybe I should try again.

hollywoodrox

strtdv said:

Well I bought the D45 impulse set from 3Sigma, and first impressions are not just good but actually slightly incredulous that my guitar can sound this good amplified!
There is one of the 10 impulses in particular that just fits the guitar and my preferred sound perfectly, I've done a tiny bit of EQ tweaking and added a little reverb, but even with the guitar straight into the IR I'm extremely impressed.

I'll use it live for now and then see if I get fed up lugging the Helix around and buy a small pedal that lets me load the IR I like best onto 

Brilliant well done 

TheBigDipper

strtdv said:

Well I bought the D45 impulse set from 3Sigma, and first impressions are not just good but actually slightly incredulous that my guitar can sound this good amplified!
There is one of the 10 impulses in particular that just fits the guitar and my preferred sound perfectly, I've done a tiny bit of EQ tweaking and added a little reverb, but even with the guitar straight into the IR I'm extremely impressed.

I'll use it live for now and then see if I get fed up lugging the Helix around and buy a small pedal that lets me load the IR I like best onto 

If you're happy, who cares about anyone else? 

FWIW, I saw Nick Harper a few weeks ago (and he was fantastic). I've no idea what pickup was in his acoustic, but he plugged his mic and his guitar into a full fat Helix and sounded great. He was doing a bit more than just IRs, though. He was using a delay and a chorus, for sure. 

I think he was monitoring himself from the Helix and sending a feed to the sound engineer. 

Stratavarious

I use lots of free acoustic IRs from here…. 

http://acousticir.free.fr/

ToneControl

TTony said:

strtdv said:

The piezo quack is very noticeable, and I was wondering if in this age of digital modelling where I can do a reasonable impression of most electric guitar amplifiers with my Helix whether there was a smaller/simpler/cheaper equivalent to allow me to get a more "natural" sound out of a piezo equipped electro-acoustic guitar?

Have you tried any IRs in your Helix (check 3sigma.com)?

Or just some of the other FX to tame the quack ...

yeah, I had a patch I created in my Helix that did a good job.
The same as with my AxeFx, I just got an IR of a guitar body, and mixed it in

I always have some acoustic patches on my modellers.

For that matter you can get some quite passable  electric to acoustic patches that would be good enough for a live performance or jam

ToneControl

strtdv said:

BigLicks67 said:

I have 3 acoustics, 2 with pickups and 1 without. The best results I get are with the 'unpickuped' guitar with a SM58 in front of it into a Fishman loudbox. Depends on how loud you need to be playing live as to whether this approach is possible.
Most pickups seem to me to be a lot of money spent for very little reward. 

I'm not disagreeing that in a studio situation etc direct micing is likely to give the best results, but as a play standing and tend to move about a bit I can imagine the sound guy getting annoyed with me. 

At the moment I'm basically looking at trying an acoustic IR on the helix and if that works well getting a smaller pedal to run the IR and use that (total cost £100-110) versus trying a good outboard preamp/effects unit eg Boss AD8/10 or Fishman ToneDEQ (cost from about £180-300), or switching pickup to a K&K mini with or without external preamp (£100 for the K&K mini, preamp anywhere from £100-350).
An outside option is to sell the guitar and buy an electro-acoustic that I like the sound of the fitted pickup (by far the most expensive option, likely to work out £600+ dearer than the next option, but new guitars are always nice)

I have an external K+K preamp, the mixer one since I have a guitar with a mini and a mic
For a guitar with just the mini, I'd just do it all in the modeller. In fact I do that, even though I have the external preamp

ScreamingDave

TC Electronic do a little pedal called a Body Rez, or something, and that does a really good job of taming the quack and just introducing acoustic loveliness to things.  I think it was designed by a team consisting of Professor Dumbledore, Gandalf and Dr Prospero.

sev112

Few years back I bought the little iRig Acoustic Stage, which has a clip on microphone and a clip to your pocket/strap pre-amp.  It was okish for acoustic guitars at Open Mics, but I ended up using it for Uke and classical guitars.
What it turns out to be is a really good combination with the Baggs Element providing the piezo pickup and the IRig the mic, and when blended are really quite versatile

SlopeSoarer

Littlejonny said:

strtdv said:

BigLicks67 said:

I have 3 acoustics, 2 with pickups and 1 without. The best results I get are with the 'unpickuped' guitar with a SM58 in front of it into a Fishman loudbox. Depends on how loud you need to be playing live as to whether this approach is possible.
Most pickups seem to me to be a lot of money spent for very little reward. 

I'm not disagreeing that in a studio situation etc direct micing is likely to give the best results, but as a play standing and tend to move about a bit I can imagine the sound guy getting annoyed with me. 

At the moment I'm basically looking at trying an acoustic IR on the helix and if that works well getting a smaller pedal to run the IR and use that (total cost £100-110) versus trying a good outboard preamp/effects unit eg Boss AD8/10 or Fishman ToneDEQ (cost from about £180-300), or switching pickup to a K&K mini with or without external preamp (£100 for the K&K mini, preamp anywhere from £100-350).
An outside option is to sell the guitar and buy an electro-acoustic that I like the sound of the fitted pickup (by far the most expensive option, likely to work out £600+ dearer than the next option, but new guitars are always nice)

Don’t get a K&K - get a JourneyTek. They’re half the price and sound twice as good. There’s also a mic add-on but it’s currently out of stock in UK.

 I’ve always found IRs a bit phasey and weird sounding in a live situation but maybe I should try again.

I've looked at the JourneyTek's and they do look fantastic value. I'd have bought some by now but it is the disc diameter that puts me off as they are 20mm diameter as opposed to K&K's 12mm. 

If considering it is worth checking the underside mount plate as even the K&K's would be pushing it on my Taylor GT Urban Ash.

ESBlonde

Unfortunately there is no UK dealer for MESA at the moment.
I have a Mesa Rosetta pedal/preamp/DI which is like having a quality mixer Chanel at your toes and when I used the built in piezo pickup in my 90s epiphone I could get a very nice sound into the PA. I eventually added a fishman PU and mic blend to the guitar for even better fidelity because I enjoy gigging that guitar for hours and hours.