Fender Tone Master Amps

powerhand

I was looking at getting a new amp and I've always fancied a Fender '65 Twin Reverb reissue. During my searches, I came across the Tone Master amps. Has anyone had experience of them and how do they compare to the real tube version? As far as I can tell, the only difference between the Deluxe Reverb and Twin Reverb is the number of speakers - is that right? The amp will be mostly, if not entirely, for home practice (although I'm lucky enough to have a separate room where I don't have to be particularly quiet). Would I be right to assume that a 1x12 will be more than enough, or is there something else that the Twin adds over and above more volume?

stickyfiddle

I have the Deluxe and Princeton versions. The Deluxe is may main playing out amp - rehearsal, jams, gigs, etc. The Princeton arrived by chance in trade for a couple of pedals and no lives under my WFH desk to feel like I can still play a "proper amp" when I get a break from work. On both of them the attenuation, light weight and DI out are absolutely brilliant. 
 
The difference between Deluxe and Twin is the same as on the valve versions - 2 speakers and more volume are the most obvious, but the Twin also gains Middle controls and Bright switch for each channel, and feels a little bit different (bigger and cleaner is how I'd describe it). The Deluxe is certainly plenty of volume for home use, but it's worth trying both if you've never tried either before, either TM or valve versions. I love the Deluxe and have never got on with Twins as much. 

strtdv

Do you need a headphone output?

If the answer is no then I'd get either a custom deluxe Princeton or Deluxe reverb, and possibly an attenuator for home use. I say this as someone who has both a Helix and a couple of valve amps. 

The reason I'd go for the "real" amp isn't to do with the sound, it's to do with the fact that in 20 years time my valve amps will both very likely be working perfectly (and if not will probably be easily repairable). I had a 50 year old Orange which worked perfectly once I spent about £150 on a major service/overhaul.
If a modelling amp breaks it's much less likely to be repairable. It will also, no matter how good the digital modelling tech is now, be "obsolete" in 10 years or less. 

Digital modelling is very very good these days, but I still regard the Helix as something that will last for 5 out 10 years and then be replaced. My handwired MJW will likely last a lifetime.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

I have the Tonemaster Princeton Reverb and it's fantastic. Use it on either of the lowest 2 power scaling settings for home practice, and on full power with a little bit going through the PA from the excellent DI Out for gigs.

If it's just for home practice I honestly wouldn't bother with either of the bigger options. The Twin on particular is big and very loud on anything approaching the full power mode.

Wazmeister

The TMDR is a super amp, and more than suitable for home use… in fact, with the attenuator, it is perfect.

The DR will be break up more than the Twin… imowned both together and would recommend unreservedly the DR.

ecc83

strtdv said:

Do you need a headphone output?

If the answer is no then I'd get either a custom deluxe Princeton or Deluxe reverb, and possibly an attenuator for home use. I say this as someone who has both a Helix and a couple of valve amps. 

The reason I'd go for the "real" amp isn't to do with the sound, it's to do with the fact that in 20 years time my valve amps will both very likely be working perfectly (and if not will probably be easily repairable). I had a 50 year old Orange which worked perfectly once I spent about £150 on a major service/overhaul.
If a modelling amp breaks it's much less likely to be repairable. It will also, no matter how good the digital modelling tech is now, be "obsolete" in 10 years or less. 

Digital modelling is very very good these days, but I still regard the Helix as something that will last for 5 out 10 years and then be replaced. My handwired MJW will likely last a lifetime.

Well, yes in principle but will there be any decent techs about in ten years who can work on valve amps? When I got my job with Blackstar several years ago they saw quite a few people and the quality must have been pretty dire if they had to settle for a 60 odd year old deaf fekker with rubbish computer skills!

I doubt there is a technical collage anywhere that teaches valve circuitry? Are likes of Marshall taking on apprentices and even if so they will want to hang onto the good ones. Then, setting up any kind of electronics repair business is very difficult and even harder to make a decent living at it long term.

I know it is boring to trot out the old "The government should do something!" but the fact is we desperately need a bloody ARMY of people to fix our shit because we are running out of planet!

Valve amplifiers are very 'ungreen' but once they are made (well!) yes, they can be repaired almost ad inf like old Jaguars and so the 'energy' needed to make them is locked up forever and need never be generated again.

Dave.

markj

I’ve owned a blonde tonemaster deluxe Reverb since January of this year, l honestly can’t recommend them enough.
The attenuator works extremely well from whisper quiet and all the points in between.
 I only play at home and an odd jam with another home player and it takes pedals extremely well.

munckee

After trying a deluxe next to a tm version I ruled out tone masters. As most people seem to say they are almost as good as the real thing, but I’d rather have the real thing, there is a noticeable sound quality difference to my ears.  

If weight is an issue then that might change the decision. 

munckee

I would add to that I play mostly clean. 

strtdv

ecc83 said:

strtdv said:

Do you need a headphone output?

If the answer is no then I'd get either a custom deluxe Princeton or Deluxe reverb, and possibly an attenuator for home use. I say this as someone who has both a Helix and a couple of valve amps. 

The reason I'd go for the "real" amp isn't to do with the sound, it's to do with the fact that in 20 years time my valve amps will both very likely be working perfectly (and if not will probably be easily repairable). I had a 50 year old Orange which worked perfectly once I spent about £150 on a major service/overhaul.
If a modelling amp breaks it's much less likely to be repairable. It will also, no matter how good the digital modelling tech is now, be "obsolete" in 10 years or less. 

Digital modelling is very very good these days, but I still regard the Helix as something that will last for 5 out 10 years and then be replaced. My handwired MJW will likely last a lifetime.

Well, yes in principle but will there be any decent techs about in ten years who can work on valve amps? When I got my job with Blackstar several years ago they saw quite a few people and the quality must have been pretty dire if they had to settle for a 60 odd year old deaf fekker with rubbish computer skills!

I doubt there is a technical collage anywhere that teaches valve circuitry? Are likes of Marshall taking on apprentices and even if so they will want to hang onto the good ones. Then, setting up any kind of electronics repair business is very difficult and even harder to make a decent living at it long term.

I know it is boring to trot out the old "The government should do something!" but the fact is we desperately need a bloody ARMY of people to fix our shit because we are running out of planet!

Valve amplifiers are very 'ungreen' but once they are made (well!) yes, they can be repaired almost ad inf like old Jaguars and so the 'energy' needed to make them is locked up forever and need never be generated again.

Dave.

Yes I think there will be techs, it'll just get more expensive as there will be fewer of them. The technology in valve amps has already been obsolete since the 1960's, but has survived all that time. 

It'll become like watches. There's really no need for a mechanical watch to exist at all, but that doesn't stop them being very desirable within enthusiast circles. 
The arrival of quartz has similarly reduced the number of master clockmakers, but those that remain generally charge more. 

Valve amps have a lot of inherent advantages. A good one will sound really good, and apart from the valves they're physically robust, they generally use fairly simple circuits which are easy to repair, and can last 50+ years with very little attention beyond capacitor maintenance/replacement. 

My Helix if it breaks is likely to be impractical to repair and in any case something with more processing power, more models and better UI will come along and replace it. It was also made in a large factory in China where I imagine if I had to work there I would find the working conditions miserable, in contrast to my MJW which was built locally

ecc83

Oh! I agree Strtdv, there will never be NO  valve techs but they will become ever rarer and far apart and, as you say more expensive (and I don't blame them for their charges in principle) ICBM is in Scotland and that is a heck of a schlep with a heavy combo from south of the M25 and ***knows how much couriers will be charging in 2034!

The only general solution I can see is the setting up of "service centres" where all sorts of trades can rent space and ply their trade.

Dave.

the_jaffa

I've got a TM Twin Reverb and for me it is ideal.

It's quiet enough to plat at home using the power scaling, it's plenty powerful to play out with whether you want clean or a bit of break up and the sound is absolutely close enough as soon as you're playing with anyone else. Add all of that and the fact that I can carry it one handed to the pub and it's a winner

ChrisCox1994

If I had only one amp for gigging, home practice, travel and recording it would be the TMDR.

Does it sound 100% the same, no, does it sound good? Yes, it only amplifies what you put in...

I don't think there's a better option for price/sound/versatility/weight/aesthetic.

Danny1969

ecc83 said:

strtdv said:

Do you need a headphone output?

If the answer is no then I'd get either a custom deluxe Princeton or Deluxe reverb, and possibly an attenuator for home use. I say this as someone who has both a Helix and a couple of valve amps. 

The reason I'd go for the "real" amp isn't to do with the sound, it's to do with the fact that in 20 years time my valve amps will both very likely be working perfectly (and if not will probably be easily repairable). I had a 50 year old Orange which worked perfectly once I spent about £150 on a major service/overhaul.
If a modelling amp breaks it's much less likely to be repairable. It will also, no matter how good the digital modelling tech is now, be "obsolete" in 10 years or less. 

Digital modelling is very very good these days, but I still regard the Helix as something that will last for 5 out 10 years and then be replaced. My handwired MJW will likely last a lifetime.

Well, yes in principle but will there be any decent techs about in ten years who can work on valve amps? When I got my job with Blackstar several years ago they saw quite a few people and the quality must have been pretty dire if they had to settle for a 60 odd year old deaf fekker with rubbish computer skills!

I doubt there is a technical collage anywhere that teaches valve circuitry? Are likes of Marshall taking on apprentices and even if so they will want to hang onto the good ones. Then, setting up any kind of electronics repair business is very difficult and even harder to make a decent living at it long term.

I know it is boring to trot out the old "The government should do something!" but the fact is we desperately need a bloody ARMY of people to fix our shit because we are running out of planet!

Valve amplifiers are very 'ungreen' but once they are made (well!) yes, they can be repaired almost ad inf like old Jaguars and so the 'energy' needed to make them is locked up forever and need never be generated again.

Dave.

One nice thing about valve amps is there's a lot of great information on places like here and in general the parts are big and easy enough to work on. The trouble is they aren't a decent source of repair income in comparison to small and light objects like Macbooks and phones. I consider myself lucky as I started out in repairs in the eighties and was just young enough to get in on the computer boom and then later teach myself laptop, Ipad and phone repair. But I am old enough to have done the TV's and Ferguson Video Stars, valve amps and all kinds of old tape recorder and amp tech previously. 

Modern techs like I see on YT (I don't actually know anyone who actually fixes at component level other than myself locally) are more focussed on one product. There are amp guys who are brilliant, but they don't tend to work on digital SM stuff. Then there are guys who are great on SM digital stuff but they won't work on something like a valve amp generally. Too big and not enough money in it. 

So the electronics repair trade is more focussed in different areas in general and valve amps aren't really a viable option unless your overheads are very low. 

The Tonemaster series of amps is interesting because it uses a third party SMPS and class D amp module. If that breaks (which it will) then you can just replace that module yourself, no harder than swapping out a graphics card in a PC. But you will be replacing a £150 module  because a 12 pence MPCC has shorted ... which is kind of annoying to me but better than writing the whole amp off. The units are also badly fused too, replacing the main or aux PSU fuse is SM work so not something you will do at a gig. 

Blueingreen

strtdv said:

Do you need a headphone output?

If the answer is no then I'd get either a custom deluxe Princeton or Deluxe reverb, and possibly an attenuator for home use. I say this as someone who has both a Helix and a couple of valve amps. 

The reason I'd go for the "real" amp isn't to do with the sound, it's to do with the fact that in 20 years time my valve amps will both very likely be working perfectly (and if not will probably be easily repairable). I had a 50 year old Orange which worked perfectly once I spent about £150 on a major service/overhaul.
If a modelling amp breaks it's much less likely to be repairable. It will also, no matter how good the digital modelling tech is now, be "obsolete" in 10 years or less. 

Digital modelling is very very good these days, but I still regard the Helix as something that will last for 5 out 10 years and then be replaced. My handwired MJW will likely last a lifetime.

For the sake of discussion let’s grant your premise and say the TM lasts 10 years and the valve amp is still going strong.

The extra value you’re getting with the valve amp is the present value of a 10 year old valve amp in 10 years time.

You’d  need to make some assumptions and do some calculations to try to estimate what that would be, but it would be a pretty small number. 

Probably trivial alongside, for example, the extra valve amp enthusiasts often pay for a more prestigious model.

I don’t have a TM, but of the variables that might affect my decision whether to purchase one this would rank very low.

GoFish

I notice your avatar @powerhand. I will note that I saw a youtube vid where a kid gets a really close "Bleach" tone with a TM Twin Reverb and a DS-1. 

I recently got a 65 Twin Reissue and I love it! It's Heavy, but so is an AC 30. It had wheels, a mids knob, a responsive volume that lives on 2.2 and some low level hiss that I should probably get seen to but I don't hear while playing.  The big clean sounds are fantastic and rich - I play clean a lot more through it and I swear it almost sounds like a very light drive,  it's so lively. It's very revealling of pedals into it and requires a different approach to fuzz, but so does an AC30. The Tonemaster probably will too, in it's own way.

To Tonemaster owners, dues the faux attentuation reduce the percieved headroom as you go down in level?

strtdv

@Blueingreen that's not correct. The extra value is that if I find a valve amp I love the sound of there's a good chance it's an amp for life, which is definitely not the case with a modelling amp. In 10 years time it's unlikely that the 3rd party that produce the Class D power amp are going to be making it anymore, and it's effectively irreparable.

The other big thing for me if I were choosing between a Tonemaster Deluxe and a 68 Custom Deluxe would be how it reacts to rolling back the volume control, particularly when it's being overdriven. 
Modelling has got much better at this in the last decade but to my ears it still hasn't cracked it. It sounds good enough for live use, but in terms of enjoying playing an amp in the room and feeling like the guitar and amp are really interacting with each other it's just not there yet

ecc83

"the 3rd party that produce the Class D power amp are going to be making it anymore, and it's effectively irreparable." This will not matter. The claimed sonic differences between discrete, 'old school' competently designed solid state amps has never been proved and rather than waste time and the punters money attempting to fix a 25 transistor DC coupled circuit many techs just bolted in an ILP module or one of those very handy Maplin MOSFET kits. No fekker ever heard a diff!

A class D module of the same power rating will be fine. Indeed most of them use all the same chips and internal logic.

What WILL be gone is the programmed chip that does the modelling. This is the case now with old synths.

Dave.

jellybelly

Lots of 'wis' handed out here. 

If my TMDR lasts me 10 years and then heads to the tip (well ignore that it's a properly made pine cabinet in classic Fender livery for now I guess) I think that's pretty good value. Mainly because I play the thing, without any compromises, way more than any individual amp I've ever owned. 

As others have said, sounds great in its own right and close to that classic Fender tone, DI out and attenuator are as great for gigs as they are for home practice and recording. It's so light I can carry my entire rig up 2 flights without hassle and unload at a gig in one trip, and it looks like a proper Fender rather than some space age tech fest. 

If the <5% subjective tonal 'improvement' for a valve amp is worth it for 2-3 times the cost, oncosts like valves and servicing, rattles and buzzes and random issues you have to try and ignore or hope aren't a big deal coz you don't have £200 to take it to a tech this month, then great! Go nuts! I won't do it again. 

stickyfiddle

@jellybelly Bingo. 

They're half the price of the valve ones, half the weight of the valve ones and at least twice the usability. Bloody bargain imo 

HAL9000

Thing is a solid state amp doesn’t need to be modelling to sound good. The proof is in amps like the Orange Crush Pro, Peavy Bandit, Award-Session, etc. No DSP so respond well to pedals, rolling back the volume, etc.
…plus they all seem pretty robust and presumably reasonably repairable. I wouldn’t expect any of them to become landfill anytime soon.