Fender Tone Master Amps

Danny1969

ecc83 said:

"Any DI socket (unless designed by an idiot) is fine with pin 3 shorted to 1 as that's exactly what happens when you plug an XLR into a mono line input using a standard XRL to TR. Generally when converting it's best to not leave anything floating so a lot of cables are wired that way."

?? If pin 3 has signal on it and you short it to ground (p 1) then the amplifier will be permanently clipping and the spikes likely to be audible. The IC is unlikely to be damaged but it is bad practice. 

No, you don't want to sum 2&3, they will cancel so just 'pinch' pin 2 hot and feed both ears. Pin 1 is of course common ground. 

This problem, getting an unbalanced feed from a balanced output is one that crops up in audio forums practically once a month! The other trap for the unwary is people feeding TRS headphone outs into balanced line inputs. 

Dave..

I mean short to ground of the input. 

On many differential outputs there is no audio reference to ground ... the signal is on 2 and 3. If you leave 3 open on the input of the next device then you will have no signal. If you tie 3 to the audio ground of that device though then you  will be unbalanced and -6dB but will work fine on shortish cable runs

ChrisCox1994

People hear with their eyes and bank statements a lot of time, I'm sure in a true blind test with a pedalboard in front none of us could pick out a tonemaster from a "regular" version in a room, at a gig.

Nitpicking a clean sound at home sitting in front of both amps there are *differences*, whether those differences are perceived as good or bad is subjective and informed by the preconceived ideas of "warmth, purity, tone" that we associate with valves.

Having said that I'm not shifting my favourite valve amps any time soon - variety is fun.

ecc83

Danny1969 said:

ecc83 said:

"Any DI socket (unless designed by an idiot) is fine with pin 3 shorted to 1 as that's exactly what happens when you plug an XLR into a mono line input using a standard XRL to TR. Generally when converting it's best to not leave anything floating so a lot of cables are wired that way."

?? If pin 3 has signal on it and you short it to ground (p 1) then the amplifier will be permanently clipping and the spikes likely to be audible. The IC is unlikely to be damaged but it is bad practice. 

No, you don't want to sum 2&3, they will cancel so just 'pinch' pin 2 hot and feed both ears. Pin 1 is of course common ground. 

This problem, getting an unbalanced feed from a balanced output is one that crops up in audio forums practically once a month! The other trap for the unwary is people feeding TRS headphone outs into balanced line inputs. 

Dave..

I mean short to ground of the input. 

On many differential outputs there is no audio reference to ground ... the signal is on 2 and 3. If you leave 3 open on the input of the next device then you will have no signal. If you tie 3 to the audio ground of that device though then you  will be unbalanced and -6dB but will work fine on shortish cable runs

The only time a balanced output is not referenced to ground (0 internal volts, whatever) is when it is transformer isolated. THEN you must ground pin 3 (ir the ring) There is the rare 'servo' balanced output, hardly likely on yer ball of chalk and string guitar amp but on that if you unbalance it by sorting either output it does not mind and in fact still delivers the full fat signal. Douggy Sellf's treatise on small signal circuits makes all this quite plain.

Dave.

ICBM

You can connect high-impedance headphones directly to an XLR with just a XLR to TRS converter - the cans will then be out of phase with each other, but this actually works OK as long as you don’t mind the rather extreme ‘surround sound’ effect… some people must like this as the effects on Blackstar ID Cores sound like that!

Danny1969

I think a mod kit with the following would be god for these amps

Balanced stereo inputs with sum to mono so the DSP can be bypassed and the amp used as a platform for modellers

Decent dedicated headphone amp 

Bluetooth so people can jam along to BT's

It would involve cutting a hole in the rear chassis and no ones gonna do that while under warranty, but other than that it can be accomplished with no soldering or cutting of any Fender wires at all. Just a case of electronically routing  another PCB between the DSP board and the Icepower board ... and that just means moving the JST header from the Icepower board to the mod board and then plugging the mod board header onto the Icepower board. 

When I see one cheap enough I will buy it and design the mod board. I wouldn't trust one of these amps for live use in all weathers but they seem popular at home.  So there might well be a small market for a mod board. 

dazzajl

The Tone Master amps are brilliant, they sound fabulous and have a great feature set. 

If someone can’t sound great through a TM, they’re not going to sound any better using the real thing. 

fretfinder

Is there any difference sound-wise between the black and blonde TMDRs?

(Yes, I know they’re a different colour and that one is therefore better/worse, cooler/less cool etc…!  )

TimmyO

fretfinder said:

Is there any difference sound-wise between the black and blonde TMDRs?

(Yes, I know they’re a different colour and that one is therefore better/worse, cooler/less cool etc…!  )

1. They come as stock with different speakers (Neo Celestion Creamback in the Blonde was the change there - but obv you could put either speaker in either amp as a DIY mod) 
2. They come as stock with different firmware installed ('bright cap snipped' version in the Blonde was the change there, but obv either can be installed in either - just needs a computer and a USB cable)
3. They have different mics modelled on the cab sim output on the XLR - I'm not sure off the top of my head  if this is part of the firmware and could therefore be changed for either to have either. 

dazzajl

fretfinder said:

Is there any difference sound-wise between the black and blonde TMDRs?

(Yes, I know they’re a different colour and that one is therefore better/worse, cooler/less cool etc…!  )

They are quite different, I much preferred the black one but I seem to be the minority there. The standard issue sounds more the idea of a fender amp in my head. The blonde was more punchy to my ears. 

TimmyO

TimmyO said:

fretfinder said:

Is there any difference sound-wise between the black and blonde TMDRs?

(Yes, I know they’re a different colour and that one is therefore better/worse, cooler/less cool etc…!  )

1. They come as stock with different speakers (Neo Celestion Creamback in the Blonde was the change there - but obv you could put either speaker in either amp as a DIY mod) 
2. They come as stock with different firmware installed ('bright cap snipped' version in the Blonde was the change there, but obv either can be installed in either - just needs a computer and a USB cable)
3. They have different mics modelled on the cab sim output on the XLR - I'm not sure off the top of my head  if this is part of the firmware and could therefore be changed for either to have either. 

From the Fender support page, these are the combinations of speaker/mic sim on the XLR outputs available in each firmware version (you can choose which to install) - I believe that the black one came as stock with the first of these installed, and the blonde with the last of these

ToneMaster_Deluxe_VintageSpec_1.0.27

• Vintage accurate firmware based on vintage and 65 Reissue tube amplifiers.
• Stock firmware loaded on Tone Master Deluxe Reverb amplifiers with Jensen N12K speaker.
• Jensen N12K speaker line out IRs captured with Shure SM57 and Royer 121 microphones.

 

 ToneMaster_Deluxe_RvbMod_1.1.35

• Modified reverb control for easier fine tuning at lower settings.
• Jensen N12K speaker line out IRs captured with Shure SM57 and Royer 121 microphones.

 

 ToneMaster_Deluxe_RvbMod_NoBrightCap1.1.35

• Modified reverb control for easier fine tuning at lower settings.
• No bright cap on vibrato channel for smoother treble response when using overdrive and distortion pedals at lower settings.
• Jensen N12K speaker line out IRs captured with Shure SM57 and Royer 121 microphones.

ToneMaster_Blonde_Deluxe_RvbMod_1.1.35

• Modified reverb control for easier fine tuning at lower settings.
• Celestion Neo Creamback speaker line out IRs captured with Shure SM57 and Sennheiser MD 421 microphones.

ToneMaster_Blonde_Deluxe_RvbMod_NoBrightCap1.1.35

• Modified reverb control for easier fine tuning at lower settings.
• No bright cap on vibrato channel for smoother treble response when using overdrive and distortion pedals at lower settings.
• Celestion Neo Creamback speaker line out IRs captured with Shure SM57 and Sennheiser MD 421 microphones.

jellybelly

dazzajl said:

fretfinder said:

Is there any difference sound-wise between the black and blonde TMDRs?

(Yes, I know they’re a different colour and that one is therefore better/worse, cooler/less cool etc…!  )

They are quite different, I much preferred the black one but I seem to be the minority there. The standard issue sounds more the idea of a fender amp in my head. The blonde was more punchy to my ears. 

Ditto, I liked the black one best too. 

the_jaffa

jellybelly said:

dazzajl said:

fretfinder said:

Is there any difference sound-wise between the black and blonde TMDRs?

(Yes, I know they’re a different colour and that one is therefore better/worse, cooler/less cool etc…!  )

They are quite different, I much preferred the black one but I seem to be the minority there. The standard issue sounds more the idea of a fender amp in my head. The blonde was more punchy to my ears. 

Ditto, I liked the black one best too. 

And me

Fishboy7

I'm curious to try a Tonemaster but probably not curious enough to buy one.  

stickyfiddle

I like the black one  

Not least because blonde ones just look weird to me.

dazzajl

the_jaffa said:

jellybelly said:

dazzajl said:

fretfinder said:

Is there any difference sound-wise between the black and blonde TMDRs?

(Yes, I know they’re a different colour and that one is therefore better/worse, cooler/less cool etc…!  )

They are quite different, I much preferred the black one but I seem to be the minority there. The standard issue sounds more the idea of a fender amp in my head. The blonde was more punchy to my ears. 

Ditto, I liked the black one best too. 

And me

All this time I’ve been feeling alone and my people were here all along  

DiscoStu

See these amps, will they do the heavy heavy with the right pedals? I love the weight of the TM and the clean/OD is great but I need heavier tones at times. (Alice in Chains, Metallica, Tool etc)

stickyfiddle

DiscoStu said:

See these amps, will they do the heavy heavy with the right pedals? I love the weight of the TM and the clean/OD is great but I need heavier tones at times. (Alice in Chains, Metallica, Tool etc)

That might be pushing it. 

I can get up to ACDD/EVH with an Origin Revival Drive set to ape a good Marshall but I suspect it'll start to sag too much when you get towards metal territory

jellybelly

DiscoStu said:

See these amps, will they do the heavy heavy with the right pedals? I love the weight of the TM and the clean/OD is great but I need heavier tones at times. (Alice in Chains, Metallica, Tool etc)

No more or less than any other Fender. Definitely in the 'alternative' rather than 'metal' category of heavy tones. Fuzzes and Rats and that!

I reckon the catalyst or katana might work for you though? Fairly light still??

DiscoStu

Bother. So if I put a high gain pedal in to it, what happens? Does it go flubby?

ICBM

A real Twin sounds great with a Mesa V-Twin in front of it - with the Mesa set for clean and 'blues' with another pedal in front of that for high-gain - I used to do that as a Trem-o-verb substitute so I didn't have to carry my own amp if I knew a Twin would be available. I don't know if it would work as well into a Tonemaster but I'll have to try it one day...