Fender Tone Master Amps

ecc83

There is no reason at all why a valve amplifier cannot be extremely reliable, low in noise and hum. I dealt with a few Vortexian, Philips and other brand Public Address amps in factories, warehouses, WMClubs and hospitals and these things ran covered in dust for decades. A valve change, a pot clean and MAYBE a cap or two and they were good for another ten years.

The weak point today of course is the valves but if that is accepted at the design stage you can make circuits that do not get destroyed when a KT88 arcs over, just costs a wee bit more is all. Hum can be all but eliminated now because electro-caps are cheap in decent values. Pre amp heaters can easily be done by a super clean regulated DC supply and I have a theory that close control of heater voltage prolongs valve life?

We had good engineering 50 years ago, no reason we can't have it still. What we DON'T have is the army of service techs we once did.

Dave.

jellybelly

@HAL9000 the implication you're making is that the Tone Master amps, or any other modelling technology for that matter, don't react well to pedals. Or indeed that one technology does this better than another by default. This is not the case based on my experience with both my TMDR as well as Line 6/Helix products. If it's modelled correctly that includes how the input stage reacts to different signals. 

'Takes pedals well' is a sliding scale and I'd put my TMDR near the top end of that. Zero issues, really clear and distinct sounds and plenty of headroom. 

Worst amp I've ever owned for pedal taking was actually a valve amp - an Orange AD15. It just couldn't do anything but be loader and gainier, all subtly went out the window!

stickyfiddle

HAL9000 said:

 No DSP so respond well to pedals, rolling back the volume, etc.

I don't understand why people keep talking about this wrt to the Tonemasters - they respond really well to picking dynamics and they're fantastic with pedals ?? 

jellybelly

ecc83 said:

There is no reason at all why a valve amplifier cannot be extremely reliable, low in noise and hum. I dealt with a few Vortexian, Philips and other brand Public Address amps in factories, warehouses, WMClubs and hospitals and these things ran covered in dust for decades. A valve change, a pot clean and MAYBE a cap or two and they were good for another ten years.

The weak point today of course is the valves but if that is accepted at the design stage you can make circuits that do not get destroyed when a KT88 arcs over, just costs a wee bit more is all. Hum can be all but eliminated now because electro-caps are cheap in decent values. Pre amp heaters can easily be done by a super clean regulated DC supply and I have a theory that close control of heater voltage prolongs valve life?

We had good engineering 50 years ago, no reason we can't have it still. What we DON'T have is the army of service techs we once did.

Dave.

If there were loads of valves, loads of techs and Fender and Marshall etc all still made amps the way they used to then I'd still be playing a valve amp Dave. No question. Like you say, now it's a niche skillset, there's only really 2 producers of valves left on the planet and if you want an easily serviceable valve amp it's boutique or vintage with price tags to match. 

Alexlotl

Love my Princeton TM. If for some reason it becomes unsupportable in future I can always put a DIY Princeton kit into the lovely pine cabinet. But I’m not sure there’s any going back from having a built in attenuator and not worrying about the house burning down if i accidentally leave it on. 

Pedal-wise, the only complaint I’ve ever heard about the TMs is that they don’t take fuzz particularly well. I’ve only got one fuzz pedal, the Muff-based Ibanez 850 Mini, and it sounds great to my ears. Something simpler like a Fuzz Face might be more problematic, perhaps?

1Strat2many

I use a Princeton TM for small to medium sized venues ( with a touch of the excellent DI into the PA) and am very happy with it indeed. When I bought it last July I tried it alongside the the DR TM which hugely impressed me, especially the excellent Jensen N12K Neo Speaker. If I didn’t already own a superb ‘74 silverface DR I would have bought the TM DR. However, weight is an issue at my age now (71) and, so impressed was I with the Neo Jensen I have now fitted one to the ‘74 DR and love the sound both at home and on gigs. Its a tad lighter too, which always helps. I agree with other favourable comments on the DR TM and do not think you would regret buying one. I used to be a bit of a valve diehard but nowadays, things are changing. 

HAL9000

@stickyfiddle @jellybelly - My experience of solid-state amps has been that analogue solid-state is more valve-like in how it ‘feels’ than digital solid-state, and is also more responsive to picking dynamics,  input volume, and how it takes drive pedals. To be fair I haven’t any experience of Fender Tone Master amps but if they’re as good as you say then I’m very happy to be corrected.

MagicPigDetective

This thread is not helping my GAS for a TMDR at all… 

stickyfiddle

HAL9000 said:

@stickyfiddle @jellybelly - My experience of solid-state amps has been that analogue solid-state is more valve-like in how it ‘feels’ than digital solid-state, and is also more responsive to picking dynamics,  input volume, and how it takes drive pedals. To be fair I haven’t any experience of Fender Tone Master amps but if they’re as good as you say then I’m very happy to be corrected.

All I can tell you is I always loved DRs whenever I tried them but never owned one because they were too loud. I thought about various options around custom builds, attenuation, etc etc, for probably a decade. Since getting the TMDR in late 2020 I haven't considered buying any other DR-style amp and I can't imagine I ever will

pt22

There is no headphone out on the TM Princeton, is there? Seems a massive oversight.  

Alexlotl

pt22 said:

There is no headphone out on the TM Princeton, is there? Seems a massive oversight.  

Yeah, it’s odd. Apparently an XLR to Headphone converter will do the job for undemanding headphones, though. For high input impedance ones you’ll need a headphone amp. 

ecc83

Alexlotl said:

pt22 said:

There is no headphone out on the TM Princeton, is there? Seems a massive oversight.  

Yeah, it’s odd. Apparently an XLR to Headphone converter will do the job for undemanding headphones, though. For high input impedance ones you’ll need a headphone amp. 

Can you give me the exact model number of that amp? A link to a schematic would be great as well iff possible. Re headphones, the Behringer HA400 headphone and is very good even though only the price of a couple of sets of strings. If you want cans in both ears you will need to wire an XLR to TRS socket to do that.

Dave.

Danny1969

You will need to convert the XLR output to single ended first, by shorting pin 3 to pin 1 ... then you need to get pin 2 to feed both left and right ... otherwise the signal will be on one ear only. 

A better idea would be  XLR out into Behringer MA400 or similar and then plug cans in 

Danny1969

Also, as I've mentioned before you can easily mod a Tonemaster as the input to the Icepower module is on a standard JST header, and this header also contains the dual aux supply. So you can tap off for the headphone amp signal and also have a ready available dual supply to power it. Just don't go mad with the cap values on the headphone amp as too much in rush current will blow the aux supply fuse. 

the_jaffa

Danny1969 said:

You will need to convert the XLR output to single ended first, by shorting pin 3 to pin 1 ... then you need to get pin 2 to feed both left and right ... otherwise the signal will be on one ear only. 

A better idea would be  XLR out into Behringer MA400 or similar and then plug cans in 

That's an excellent suggestion and one that I think I'll sort out too. Having the option of headphones is not a bad thing at all and thaMA400 is cheap enough to be a no-brainer really.

Cheers

ecc83

Danny1969 said:

You will need to convert the XLR output to single ended first, by shorting pin 3 to pin 1 ... then you need to get pin 2 to feed both left and right ... otherwise the signal will be on one ear only. 

A better idea would be  XLR out into Behringer MA400 or similar and then plug cans in 

Love a map Dan! Why short 3 to 1? If it is an 'impedance' balanced output then there is no signal on pin 3 conventionally. If a pair of OOP amps then definitely DON'T short 3 to ground!

Yes the hot pin 2 needs to feed both ring and tip on the jack. The Berry is the "H" A 400, have one in me hand.

Hobby horse...I think XLRs on gitamps are silly UNLESS they are at microphone level and transformer isolated.

Dave.

pt22

I bet we will see Tonemaster "V2" in a few months/years with the added headphone out and maybe some other small digital tweaks to create demand for owners of V1 to upgrade. Kind of a "planned obsolescence", even if the original still works. 

EDIT - I don't mean to complain. I'm actually itching to buy one of these. It seems like the ultimate home amp for those who want the fendery sound, but I absolutely need to be able to play silently via headphones, and as I've got other ways to do that I just can't see it being worth trading up my existing gear.

How hard would it be for fender to change the input to be stereo, and have mono output via the speaker but maintain stereo via the dual xlr/headphone output? To me that is the pinnacle of a home amp solution. 

Danny1969

ecc83 said:

Danny1969 said:

You will need to convert the XLR output to single ended first, by shorting pin 3 to pin 1 ... then you need to get pin 2 to feed both left and right ... otherwise the signal will be on one ear only. 

A better idea would be  XLR out into Behringer MA400 or similar and then plug cans in 

Love a map Dan! Why short 3 to 1? If it is an 'impedance' balanced output then there is no signal on pin 3 conventionally. If a pair of OOP amps then definitely DON'T short 3 to ground!

Yes the hot pin 2 needs to feed both ring and tip on the jack. The Berry is the "H" A 400, have one in me hand.

Hobby horse...I think XLRs on gitamps are silly UNLESS they are at microphone level and transformer isolated.

Dave.

It's a differential signal, pin 3 is opposite phase to pin 2 .... if you simply convert to TRS then they will cancel out. 

Any DI socket (unless designed by an idiot) is fine with pin 3 shorted to 1 as that's exactly what happens when you plug an XLR into a mono line input using a standard XRL to TR. Generally when converting it's best to not leave anything floating so a lot of cables are wired that way. 

I don't have a schematic for the DSP part of the amp  but I am very familiar with the SMPS / D amp module as I've repaired a couple and also use them in my designs 

ecc83

"Any DI socket (unless designed by an idiot) is fine with pin 3 shorted to 1 as that's exactly what happens when you plug an XLR into a mono line input using a standard XRL to TR. Generally when converting it's best to not leave anything floating so a lot of cables are wired that way."

?? If pin 3 has signal on it and you short it to ground (p 1) then the amplifier will be permanently clipping and the spikes likely to be audible. The IC is unlikely to be damaged but it is bad practice. 

No, you don't want to sum 2&3, they will cancel so just 'pinch' pin 2 hot and feed both ears. Pin 1 is of course common ground. 

This problem, getting an unbalanced feed from a balanced output is one that crops up in audio forums practically once a month! The other trap for the unwary is people feeding TRS headphone outs into balanced line inputs. 

Dave..

Alexlotl

ecc83 said:

Alexlotl said:

pt22 said:

There is no headphone out on the TM Princeton, is there? Seems a massive oversight.  

Yeah, it’s odd. Apparently an XLR to Headphone converter will do the job for undemanding headphones, though. For high input impedance ones you’ll need a headphone amp. 

Can you give me the exact model number of that amp? A link to a schematic would be great as well iff possible. Re headphones, the Behringer HA400 headphone and is very good even though only the price of a couple of sets of strings. If you want cans in both ears you will need to wire an XLR to TRS socket to do that.

Dave.

I've not tried it myself, but discussion about it here: https://www.tdpri.com/threads/deluxe-reverb-tonemaster-and-headphones.982425/

Sounds like you can use the line out volume on the reverse as a master volume, then use the front volume to set breakup. Some people there say it works great, others say it can't drive their higher input impedence headphones.