Guitar selling market

TTony

chris78 said:

To answer though, the retailers are telling me prices have risen due to Brexit. They’re telling me it’s harder to sell the EU. Guitar makers are saying they’ve got barriers due to Brexit to do with raw materials, trading with the EU, but I guess that’s the problem with pesky experts, eh?

Brexit is an easy target.

"Sorry mate, prices have gone up, it's that bloody Brexit causing it".  Customer nods, everyone knows that's true, and the credit card takes a bit more damage.  

I'm not claiming that Brexit has had no effect.  There is the extra hassle (and therefore cost) for trading between UK and Europe, but it can be done (see Thomann).  The relatively small size of the UK market (vs internal EU) might make it too much hassle for too little return for smaller businesses, and VAT complications (for non-registered companies and used goods) add to that hassle.

But, overall, I'd say that there are much more significant factors affected the s/h guitar market. 

The main one is that the last few years experienced a short-term price boost which now has to correct back to sensible levels.  Unfortunately, that short-term boost brought a few "it's easy money" bedroom flippers into the market who (a) have no memory of pre-Covid normal and (b) are now sitting on stock that they over-paid (against pre-Covid normal) for and don't want to recognise that loss.

Add onto the above that finances for many are tighter now (Covid boost has gone, inflation has hurt many), so the market is quiet other than at the extremes (wealthy collectors and the true bargains). 

notsopro

chris78 said:

notsopro said:

chris78 said:

strtdv said:

@chris78 it's worth noting in your comparison that the UK price includes VAT while the USA price does not include taxes (as they are state dependent and vary depending on delivery address) 

If you add VAT to the American price the difference is much smaller (around £100).

You can find an American Pro Strat for about £1750 if you look around, which is effectively the same as the USA price plus VAT

Yeah but if I shopped around in the US, I’d be able to get it significantly cheaper. A very quick search comes up with $1599. 

I’ve also found that US and Canadian firms have commented on the increased import paperwork post Brexit, adding to complexity and cost.

you're saying about 'shopping around' can get it cheaper, but we are using your example, that you gave as an example of Brexit driving up the cost of guitars. You've been shown that there is either zero cost increase in comparison to EU, or a very small percentage compared to the US. To which you're response is 'well if i shop around I can get it cheaper'... I'm not sure what point that makes, as discussed the price varies with different retailers, no one has questioned that. 

A reminder of your point when posting on the fender website price:

"Just a single example- an American Pro Strat from Fender themselves on their website.
£1839.
$1799.

The pound is currently 1.245

So in the US, £1445. 

The example is particularly strong because it’s with the same retailer. 

We are paying a Brexit premium, also known as the idiot premium."

maybe just admit you were wrong on that one?

I'm sure you have found that, have you managed to find any examples of a guitar that's cost has "gone way up" as a result of Brexit yet? 

I was responding to someone moving the goalposts.

To answer though, the retailers are telling me prices have risen due to Brexit. They’re telling me it’s harder to sell the EU. Guitar makers are saying they’ve got barriers due to Brexit to do with raw materials, trading with the EU, but I guess that’s the problem with pesky experts, eh?

just to be clear. You said "prices have gone way up because of Brexit". I asked you if you could show any examples of that, you posted an example which didn't prove your point. I'm trying to keep this on topic with regards to actual 'guitar prices'. You're trying to change the narrative of your point to the prices of raw materials, trading with the EU have gone up which is not something I'm disputing. What I am disputing is that the "prices of new guitars have gone way up because of brexit". 

You can point to your casual chat with a retailer as evidence that prices have increased because of Brexit, however if this was the case it would be quite easy to find a few examples of us paying more (on average) than EU or US retailers. I find it a bit strange you were more than happy to post an example you found suggesting "a quick search" found examples, yet when it's been pointed out that example actually shows no difference in price you're saying 'well why should we trust experts eh". 

Not sure about you but if I get told something, I like to question it and see if there's any evidence to back it up. 

guitars4you

Brexit - Has it had an impact ? - Regarding new sales, then maybe, maybe not - Prior to Brexit and indeed covid, Thomann was already a powerful outlet, with sales into the UK alone that is greater than that of many UK stores - Believe they now are close to a billion Euro's a year as company - Far larger than Guitar Guitar, Anderton's, Peach, combined - As such whilst they don't own/control the market, they are very dominant - Be it with supply lines, exclusive deals and to a large degree pricing - But equally, companies like Roland/Boss, Fender try to achieve more of a global pricing, once all relevant import duty, purchase tax and shipping has been accounted for 

I'm not in the loop now as to stock levels at the appropriate UK/EU distribution warehouses with the likes of Fender and Gibson - But i still speak, on a regular basis to the PRS team - EU/UK is still one distribution warehouse via Cambridge - Stock level of USA guitars is close to zero and has been like this for nigh on 4 years - Everything is just about sold as/when it arrives - To the point that the warehouse is just about always empty 

Brexit has had an impact with regards to the used Market - Not an issue for the manufactures - Not really a big issue for companies like Anderton's, Guitar Guitar or Thomann as the bulk of their business is new stock - But the vat element has changed on used sales if/when you ship out of your customs border - So EU to UK or UK to EU - Today there is no actual vat when I sell a guitar to you in the UK (Okay there is a vat element within the profit, known as the margin scheme - But not in the way that vat is applied, at 20%, to sit on top of the dealers selling price - So effectively ignore this margin scheme) - Likewise no vat when a German store sells to a EU/German customer - But now if I sell to the EU, or indeed the EU sells to the UK, then VAT has to be applied at 20%

ie - My Les Paul is £2000 to you in the UK - A similar Les Paul in Germany is around 2330 Euros (ie £2k) to a German/EU customer - But now if I sell that £2000 to a customer in France/EU etc it becomes £2400 upon passing customs borders - Ditto for that 2330 Euro LP, which now becomes 2796 Euros upon leaving Germany to come to Derby - Bottom line is that it has just about killed used sales between the UK and EU and/or EU and UK - So a pain to the 'smaller guy' but hardly worth a  lost wink of a night's sleep to Rishi or Keir

Whitecat

I think it's been very easy for manufacturers, distributors and retailers alike to jack up their prices based on simple greed and blame "economic factors" (which include but are not limited to Brexit here) - which actually don't account for the massive double-digit percentage hikes we've seen since the pandemic loosened. They are using whatever excuses they can as cover to increase their bottom line, simple as that.

I'm as anti-Brexit as they come, I still think it was a stupid own goal that should probably be reversed in time, at least as far as single market membership. But I'm also realistic about causes and effects...

fretfinder

notsopro said:

chris78 said:

notsopro said:

chris78 said:

strtdv said:

@chris78 it's worth noting in your comparison that the UK price includes VAT while the USA price does not include taxes (as they are state dependent and vary depending on delivery address) 

If you add VAT to the American price the difference is much smaller (around £100).

You can find an American Pro Strat for about £1750 if you look around, which is effectively the same as the USA price plus VAT

Yeah but if I shopped around in the US, I’d be able to get it significantly cheaper. A very quick search comes up with $1599. 

I’ve also found that US and Canadian firms have commented on the increased import paperwork post Brexit, adding to complexity and cost.

you're saying about 'shopping around' can get it cheaper, but we are using your example, that you gave as an example of Brexit driving up the cost of guitars. You've been shown that there is either zero cost increase in comparison to EU, or a very small percentage compared to the US. To which you're response is 'well if i shop around I can get it cheaper'... I'm not sure what point that makes, as discussed the price varies with different retailers, no one has questioned that. 

A reminder of your point when posting on the fender website price:

"Just a single example- an American Pro Strat from Fender themselves on their website.
£1839.
$1799.

The pound is currently 1.245

So in the US, £1445. 

The example is particularly strong because it’s with the same retailer. 

We are paying a Brexit premium, also known as the idiot premium."

maybe just admit you were wrong on that one?

I'm sure you have found that, have you managed to find any examples of a guitar that's cost has "gone way up" as a result of Brexit yet? 

I was responding to someone moving the goalposts.

To answer though, the retailers are telling me prices have risen due to Brexit. They’re telling me it’s harder to sell the EU. Guitar makers are saying they’ve got barriers due to Brexit to do with raw materials, trading with the EU, but I guess that’s the problem with pesky experts, eh?

just to be clear. You said "prices have gone way up because of Brexit". I asked you if you could show any examples of that, you posted an example which didn't prove your point. I'm trying to keep this on topic with regards to actual 'guitar prices'. You're trying to change the narrative of your point to the prices of raw materials, trading with the EU have gone up which is not something I'm disputing. What I am disputing is that the "prices of new guitars have gone way up because of brexit". 

You can point to your casual chat with a retailer as evidence that prices have increased because of Brexit, however if this was the case it would be quite easy to find a few examples of us paying more (on average) than EU or US retailers. I find it a bit strange you were more than happy to post an example you found suggesting "a quick search" found examples, yet when it's been pointed out that example actually shows no difference in price you're saying 'well why should we trust experts eh". 

Not sure about you but if I get told something, I like to question it and see if there's any evidence to back it up. 

Please stop, this never ending tit for tat is getting very tedious. If you really want the full half hour argument and not just five minutes then take it to PM. Yes we know only too well that if you get told something you like to question it!

notsopro

fretfinder said:

notsopro said:

chris78 said:

notsopro said:

chris78 said:

strtdv said:

@chris78 it's worth noting in your comparison that the UK price includes VAT while the USA price does not include taxes (as they are state dependent and vary depending on delivery address) 

If you add VAT to the American price the difference is much smaller (around £100).

You can find an American Pro Strat for about £1750 if you look around, which is effectively the same as the USA price plus VAT

Yeah but if I shopped around in the US, I’d be able to get it significantly cheaper. A very quick search comes up with $1599. 

I’ve also found that US and Canadian firms have commented on the increased import paperwork post Brexit, adding to complexity and cost.

you're saying about 'shopping around' can get it cheaper, but we are using your example, that you gave as an example of Brexit driving up the cost of guitars. You've been shown that there is either zero cost increase in comparison to EU, or a very small percentage compared to the US. To which you're response is 'well if i shop around I can get it cheaper'... I'm not sure what point that makes, as discussed the price varies with different retailers, no one has questioned that. 

A reminder of your point when posting on the fender website price:

"Just a single example- an American Pro Strat from Fender themselves on their website.
£1839.
$1799.

The pound is currently 1.245

So in the US, £1445. 

The example is particularly strong because it’s with the same retailer. 

We are paying a Brexit premium, also known as the idiot premium."

maybe just admit you were wrong on that one?

I'm sure you have found that, have you managed to find any examples of a guitar that's cost has "gone way up" as a result of Brexit yet? 

I was responding to someone moving the goalposts.

To answer though, the retailers are telling me prices have risen due to Brexit. They’re telling me it’s harder to sell the EU. Guitar makers are saying they’ve got barriers due to Brexit to do with raw materials, trading with the EU, but I guess that’s the problem with pesky experts, eh?

just to be clear. You said "prices have gone way up because of Brexit". I asked you if you could show any examples of that, you posted an example which didn't prove your point. I'm trying to keep this on topic with regards to actual 'guitar prices'. You're trying to change the narrative of your point to the prices of raw materials, trading with the EU have gone up which is not something I'm disputing. What I am disputing is that the "prices of new guitars have gone way up because of brexit". 

You can point to your casual chat with a retailer as evidence that prices have increased because of Brexit, however if this was the case it would be quite easy to find a few examples of us paying more (on average) than EU or US retailers. I find it a bit strange you were more than happy to post an example you found suggesting "a quick search" found examples, yet when it's been pointed out that example actually shows no difference in price you're saying 'well why should we trust experts eh". 

Not sure about you but if I get told something, I like to question it and see if there's any evidence to back it up. 

Please stop, this never ending tit for tat is getting very tedious. If you really want the full half hour argument and not just five minutes then take it to PM. Yes we know only too well that if you get told something you like to question it!

If you think its tedious why are you reading, and then commenting on it? I'm not after a full half hour argument, this thread is about guitar prices, which is what is being discussed. All seems relevant to me.

Appreciate your advice on taking it to the PM, but I think I'll pass thanks, maybe if you find something tedious, ignore it....

guitars4you

I've certainly no interest in checking the price of a new white USA Strat in the UK v EU v USA - Or whatever product it maybe - Is there a differential and if so what has created this differential - Of course look at the full picture to include import duty/local vat/shipping - But many major manufactures require more of a global pricing now for more of a level playing field - As such rising  prices are not about global trade agreements that might be in place

In the guitar industry, probably the 2 biggest factors to have an impact on pricing concerns fuel/electric and cost of wood + other raw materials 

Fuel + Electric - Be it shipping goods or indeed the cost of operating the factory - Be it climate control for storage, or running a host of machines + of course lighting - Either way it has been a big factor with regards to manufacturing + distribution costs 

Wood issues are a big factor for many - Forest fires and termites/pests are all having a major impact on pricing and supply chains - Flooding in some cases - This applies to many different species of woods - Different issues are having an impact on both 'standing/living trees' as well as lumbered trees/blanks that are 'sat' in huge lumber mills - Yet both are been attacked by various bugs etc and ruining so much wood - Different USA or Canadian states are having to attend to different threats, as such different species are under threat - Same applies to Central and South America - But ECCO, fires and termites is a massive problem - I'm not familiar with the whole global issue of wood supply in say Asia and Africa but hard not to see similar problems 

Yet none of this touches the initial OP's question  as to why they can't sell their used guitar 

fretfinder

notsopro said:

fretfinder said:

notsopro said:

chris78 said:

notsopro said:

chris78 said:

strtdv said:

@chris78 it's worth noting in your comparison that the UK price includes VAT while the USA price does not include taxes (as they are state dependent and vary depending on delivery address) 

If you add VAT to the American price the difference is much smaller (around £100).

You can find an American Pro Strat for about £1750 if you look around, which is effectively the same as the USA price plus VAT

Yeah but if I shopped around in the US, I’d be able to get it significantly cheaper. A very quick search comes up with $1599. 

I’ve also found that US and Canadian firms have commented on the increased import paperwork post Brexit, adding to complexity and cost.

you're saying about 'shopping around' can get it cheaper, but we are using your example, that you gave as an example of Brexit driving up the cost of guitars. You've been shown that there is either zero cost increase in comparison to EU, or a very small percentage compared to the US. To which you're response is 'well if i shop around I can get it cheaper'... I'm not sure what point that makes, as discussed the price varies with different retailers, no one has questioned that. 

A reminder of your point when posting on the fender website price:

"Just a single example- an American Pro Strat from Fender themselves on their website.
£1839.
$1799.

The pound is currently 1.245

So in the US, £1445. 

The example is particularly strong because it’s with the same retailer. 

We are paying a Brexit premium, also known as the idiot premium."

maybe just admit you were wrong on that one?

I'm sure you have found that, have you managed to find any examples of a guitar that's cost has "gone way up" as a result of Brexit yet? 

I was responding to someone moving the goalposts.

To answer though, the retailers are telling me prices have risen due to Brexit. They’re telling me it’s harder to sell the EU. Guitar makers are saying they’ve got barriers due to Brexit to do with raw materials, trading with the EU, but I guess that’s the problem with pesky experts, eh?

just to be clear. You said "prices have gone way up because of Brexit". I asked you if you could show any examples of that, you posted an example which didn't prove your point. I'm trying to keep this on topic with regards to actual 'guitar prices'. You're trying to change the narrative of your point to the prices of raw materials, trading with the EU have gone up which is not something I'm disputing. What I am disputing is that the "prices of new guitars have gone way up because of brexit". 

You can point to your casual chat with a retailer as evidence that prices have increased because of Brexit, however if this was the case it would be quite easy to find a few examples of us paying more (on average) than EU or US retailers. I find it a bit strange you were more than happy to post an example you found suggesting "a quick search" found examples, yet when it's been pointed out that example actually shows no difference in price you're saying 'well why should we trust experts eh". 

Not sure about you but if I get told something, I like to question it and see if there's any evidence to back it up. 

Please stop, this never ending tit for tat is getting very tedious. If you really want the full half hour argument and not just five minutes then take it to PM. Yes we know only too well that if you get told something you like to question it!

If you think its tedious why are you reading, and then commenting on it? I'm not after a full half hour argument, this thread is about guitar prices, which is what is being discussed. All seems relevant to me.

Appreciate your advice on taking it to the PM, but I think I'll pass thanks, maybe if you find something tedious, ignore it....

Trust me, I’m not reading your comments in full! I’m noticing that you have commented at length yet again and I am ignoring it. I go into the thread to see if anything new and interesting has been posted… 

notsopro

fretfinder said:

Trust me, I’m not reading your comments in full! I’m noticing that you have commented at length yet again and I am ignoring it. I go into the thread to see if anything new and interesting has been posted… 

by commenting on it and telling me I'm going on at length? doesn't sound like you're ignoring it now does it? Regardless, I had reasons to post what I did and seek clarification, you don't like it, that's fair I respect your view, equally I'm not too concerned by it. So we'll leave it there. Guitars4u's post to me is a good balanced summary of my view too, so unless someone does answer my original point of an example, in which case I'll come back and stand corrected. I'll stop with the 'tit for tat' and long posts as if I'm coming across as 'OTT' and negative or what not, there's too much of that going around the world at the min, and it's not my intention. Have a good Friday fretfinder 

BigPaulie

fretfinder

notsopro said:

fretfinder said: Trust me, I’m not reading your comments in full! I’m noticing that you have commented at length yet again and I am ignoring it. I go into the thread to see if anything new and interesting has been posted… 

by commenting on it and telling me I'm going on at length? doesn't sound like you're ignoring it now does it?
Have a good Friday fretfinder 

I can see the length of your comments at a glance and ignore them without actually reading them!
You have a Good Friday too. 

Offset

TTony said:

Brexit is an easy target.

"Sorry mate, prices have gone up, it's that bloody Brexit causing it".  Customer nods, everyone knows that's true, and the credit card takes a bit more damage.  

I'm not claiming that Brexit has had no effect.  There is the extra hassle (and therefore cost) for trading between UK and Europe, but it can be done (see Thomann).  The relatively small size of the UK market (vs internal EU) might make it too much hassle for too little return for smaller businesses, and VAT complications (for non-registered companies and used goods) add to that hassle.

But, overall, I'd say that there are much more significant factors affected the s/h guitar market. 

The main one is that the last few years experienced a short-term price boost which now has to correct back to sensible levels.  Unfortunately, that short-term boost brought a few "it's easy money" bedroom flippers into the market who (a) have no memory of pre-Covid normal and (b) are now sitting on stock that they over-paid (against pre-Covid normal) for and don't want to recognise that loss.

Add onto the above that finances for many are tighter now (Covid boost has gone, inflation has hurt many), so the market is quiet other than at the extremes (wealthy collectors and the true bargains). 

A balanced, sensible and nuanced viewpoint?!  There's no room for that sort of nonsense here!

borntohang

Brexit has been a pain in the arse for us as a manufacturer, but more because of the amount of onerous paperwork; it hasn't affected prices nearly as much as the general insane rise in materials and shipping costs post-2020. There was a period where our shipping costs tripled or quadrupled nearly overnight although that's started to come down again.

It has absolutely devastated the grassroots touring industry though, and also made a significant cut into the availability of our backline services. I can't say whether that will change any time soon but probably not. 

prowla

Everybody thinks their vintage clunker is worth loadsamoney, that they saw a Squier sell for ~£1k so therefore every Squire (sic) has suddenly quadroupled in value, that £100 Epis are suddenly worth as much as a Gibson proper, the idea that rare means valuable.

The losers are the folks who bought into the bubble and are now finding things hard to shift.

Revolutions

We’re all trying to buy at pre-COVID prices & sell at COVID peak prices.

Right now I tend to price most things slightly lower than the cheapest option on eBay/reverb & seems to work well for anything up to around £500. Gear that’s north of £1k is really hard to move (especially £3k left handed guitars).

On manufacturer price hikes: besides materials & production costs rising, the prices we’re seeing now probably include the effect of margin recovery from insane shipping costs during COVID etc. And if you’re laden with debt, a 1% increase to interest rates can sink your business, so cost of borrowing will definitely impact retail prices.

topdog91

No less tedious: tFB's editor's limitless quoting "capabilities". Perhaps snip them manually?

topdog91

fretfinder said:

notsopro said:

fretfinder said: Trust me, I’m not reading your comments in full! I’m noticing that you have commented at length yet again and I am ignoring it. I go into the thread to see if anything new and interesting has been posted… 

by commenting on it and telling me I'm going on at length? doesn't sound like you're ignoring it now does it?
Have a good Friday fretfinder 

I can see the length of your comments at a glance and ignore them without actually reading them!
You have a Good Friday too. 

So you told them to stop their tit-for-tat, so you could start your own?  

OilCityPickups

borntohang said:

Brexit has been a pain in the arse for us as a manufacturer, but more because of the amount of onerous paperwork; it hasn't affected prices nearly as much as the general insane rise in materials and shipping costs post-2020. There was a period where our shipping costs tripled or quadrupled nearly overnight although that's started to come down again.

It has absolutely devastated the grassroots touring industry though, and also made a significant cut into the availability of our backline services. I can't say whether that will change any time soon but probably not. 

Yep our experience ... pretty much on the home market ... but we lost pretty much all our European business - so of course UK prices have to go up to ensure we still can eat and stuff. 
Added to this the touring industry used our repair services ... and with fewer smaller tours going out - we still have to remain solvent ... so up go prices. 
Touring won't fully recover till we have proper freedom of movement and go back to low friction borders. And that probably won't be in my lifetime. Thanks a bunch Little Brits ... 

Blueingreen

People are more likely to buy a guitar if they feel confident they can move it on if they don't gel with it for any reason.  A flat market increases the risk that you get stuck with something you're not loving, or have to offer at a silly price to move on.  All adds to the reluctance to buy.  And maybe encourages buying from online retailers where you can often get generous discounts in the current market and still have the ability to return the guitar if it isn't for you.

InactiveX

SPECTRUM001 said:

Don’t forget though - even if your business collapses (heaven’s forbid) and you have to live in a shoe box - apparently the UK got its sovereignty back - yay !!!

Surely that’s worth all the crap innit ??!!

I ate sovereignty this morning for breakfast. And I ate it all day yesterday. In fact, I've eaten nothing but sovereignty since January 2020. It does a good job of heating my home, too.

Anyone up for discussing the Rwanda policy?