VAR vs TMO ?

TimmyO

Genuine inquiry - not a rhetorical lament:

Why has VAR been so problematic where Rugby’s TMO hasn’t? 

Is it something about the types of things it is used to review? 

Or the way it is administered/rules written?

Or the ‘quality’ of referees and/or video assistant refs?

Or that you need loads of VAR people on a given weekend vs the size of professional rugby?  (Actually is that even right? I’m questioning myself on it now)

Or something else?

Dave8

is football harder to referee? too many convoluted rules for my liking 

change offside back to offside, none of this crap about intent to play the ball, active/not active... it all just makes it a smeary mess.

Offset

Football?  Who gives a fuck!

Sorry.

Dave8

Offset said:

Football?  Who gives a fuck!

Sorry.

not commenting on a thread you have no interest in is an option.

S56035

The games are really different to referee, Rugby has loads of natural break in it and isn't as end to end BUT we don't see the stupidly long decision making times in European football that we do in the premier league so not sure it isn't just the people doing it.

Dave8

S56035 said:

The games are really different to referee, Rugby has loads of natural break in it and isn't as end to end BUT we don't see the stupidly long decision making times in European football that we do in the premier league so not sure it isn't just the people doing it.

The decisions are just as questionable in Europe... the offside flag at the end of the Real Madrid Vs Bayern game last week?

AustrianJohn

Dave8 said:

S56035 said:

The games are really different to referee, Rugby has loads of natural break in it and isn't as end to end BUT we don't see the stupidly long decision making times in European football that we do in the premier league so not sure it isn't just the people doing it.

The decisions are just as questionable in Europe... the offside flag at the end of the Real Madrid Vs Bayern game last week?

Yes, that was a shit decision. But generally, use of VAR is European competitions and in the Austrian and German leagues is much lighter touch - only intervening in very obvious situations - like it was supposed to be in the first place. In the EPL VAR tries to re-referee too many situations.

dano

Ive no idea of the answer, buy buy think a big part of it is the communication between the Ref and the TMO.

 On the TV (atleast) you see the Ref and TMO  talking about the incident, and watching it together.  Along with questions like "any reason I can't give it?"

With VAR there seems to be less discussion, its a another person making a decision, and seems to be little discussion between him and the Ref.

sev112

I partially disagree, there is a huge amount of disagreement with all the slow motion video clips when they are shown

e.g. The TMO said that inn the Scot-FRA game, he thought the ball had been touched down for a try but he couldn’t actually see it on any clip.  So it wasn’t given because the ref originally said “no try”.  Yet he got loads and loads of grief and loads of column inches.  There are lots more

TimmyO

sev112 said:

I partially disagree, there is a huge amount of disagreement with all the slow motion video clips when they are shown

e.g. The TMO said that inn the Scot-FRA game, he thought the ball had been touched down for a try but he couldn’t actually see it on any clip.  So it wasn’t given because the ref originally said “no try”.  Yet he got loads and loads of grief and loads of column inches.  There are lots more

That’s just the correct application of the laws - pundits gonna pundit 

TTony

AustrianJohn said:

use of VAR is European competitions and in the Austrian and German leagues is much lighter touch 

I've watched quite a few German matches this season - you'd not know that VAR had been adopted there.  It barely gets used, and - in the rare occasions that it does - decisions seem to be made *much* more quickly.

And consequently the games are much more enjoyable to watch.

Teetonetal

Part of the problem for me is the use of slow motion. Review the incident in real time and if the result is not clearly contradictory, let the on field decision stand. Use for clear and obvious errors only.

boogieman

When VAR was first rumoured I’d assumed it was just going to be used to advise the ref, but only if they called for it to help make a decision. As it stands VAR is far too dominant. I don’t watch much rugby, only the odd international game, but TMO never seems to interfere that much? 

sev112

I have to humbly disagree with not too much,  they are almost constantly in the ref’s ears - that’s a forward pass, the hooker has done x, possible foul play back there etc

RaymondLin

It's the people.  The system itself is fine, the monitors and cameras can't make mistakes.  They are only replaying what happened on the pitch, it is the people making the decision that makes the mistakes.

digitalscream

Because foul play, poor sportsmanship and yelling at the ref are all baked-in as part of the entertainment value of the game. They can't stamp those things out completely, because it's all part of what people pay to see.

Therefore the rules are set up to allow them all to a hand-wavey degree, making the job of deciding what to do infinitely harder.

roundthebend

I did a Gaelic Games experience last week, great fun by the way.
The coach explained that there's an accepted emphasis on the ish bit of Irish within the rules.

Technically, you're allowed 4 steps with the Gaelic football in your hands, or the sliotar (ball) on your hurly (stick), before you have to juggle it or pass it. But if you watch the game being played you'll see up to 8 steps being taken at times.

I wish football would hold onto that. Sadly, the coach reckons that Gaelic Games will become professional in the next decade and I suspect it will bring some of this rules debate.

You can't have these big team sports played at high pace if you want the rules to be applied perfectly. 

Teetonetal

Yes, sadly the money associated with professional sport has become obscene, which means the impact of a bad decision had far reaching monetary consequences. Trying to reach black and white decisions has overtaken then need to msintsin the spirit of the game.

Can't help but think it would be better if we all simply stopped watching.

scrumhalf

VAR needs to be reined back a bit.

There needs to be recognition of a margin of error, the equivalent of umpire's call in cricket. There are borderline decisions for things which depend on when the player's boot makes contact with the ball and when that contact ceases.

VAR playbacks need to be time-limited. If the VAR has looked at sixty seconds of replays and can't come to a decision, move on. It's not a clear and obvious error.

The handball law needs to be changed back to the old law of hand/arm to ball, not just contact.

Players can moan all they want about VAR but until such time as they stop trying to con the ref at every moment then they get what they deserve. We're approaching the point where a player, with nobody within ten yards, will boot the ball out of play and then scream at the ref for giving the throw-in to the other side. A citing officer would soon cut that sort of crap out.

TimmyO

sev112 said:

I have to humbly disagree with not too much,  they are almost constantly in the ref’s ears - that’s a forward pass, the hooker has done x, possible foul play back there etc

I think he meant that the introduction of TMOs hasn’t interfered much with the flow of games. You’re right that ‘the TMO’ is usually quite active in communicating with the ref in a given game - seems to work well imo 

fretmeister

...Karl Dickson has entered the chat...