What's with all the uber-lefty knobbery at the moment?

Jalapeno

Skipped said:

Labour did not create the crisis.

Hahahaha ! )

Who got the country into unsustainable levels of debt ? Gordon Brown - this was BEFORE the global banking crisis. And Milliband a Balls were right behind him.

Fretwired

Skipped said:

The 2 periods are not comparable. There is no period in history in which Labour have cut taxes for Millionaires during a Palriament which follows a Once in a Century Financial Crisis.

The 50p rate announced by Labour was for a 5 year Parliament. The 50p rate announced by Labour is for the next 5 year Parliament (only). They will ask top rate tax payers to accept this small burden for one term only. If there are people who cannot accept this there will be volunteers to drive them to the airport. I will volunteer. I will see them on to the plane with a short and On Topic 2 word message.

The 'once in a lifetime financial crisis' started in 2007 and Labour put up the tax rate April 2010 just before a general election. Why not put it up in 2008? It was a cynical ploy to force the Tories into reversing it so Labour could call them tax cutters for the rich. And now the Tories will do the same on Wednesday by cutting taxes. They're two cheeks of the same arse.

Jalapeno

And they bloody knew what they were doing, hence the "There's No Money !" note they left behind.

Axe_meister

That fact is the 50p rate brings in fuck all money as those who can afford to pay it, avoid it anyway, so the only people it hits are those sitting in middle, who's cost of living has gone up, have had no pay rises in years.

These people are now indirectly causing a burden on the rest of us. They have had to get rid of their luxuries such as private health care, private schooling. Meaning they are now using NHS spaces and state school places instead. Remember they are paying for them anyway through tax, but previously were not using them, freeing up spaces for everybody else. 

The problem is the definition of who is considered a rich fucker 20 years ago 150k would have been the salary of a top end doctor a lawyer, but now days it's middle management, head teachers, middle ranking doctors.

If you live in London and want to buy a house at a sensible 3xSalary, well that won't even get you a three bed terraced house.

The fairest way to tax is. Get rid of duty and vat, as these disadvantage those on low incomes as they are a higher proportion of your income. Set the tax free threshold to a higher rate (lets say 25k) and then have a fixed higher tax rate of say 30% from there onwards. You'll probably find most of those who dodge tax will no longer bother to do so.

Also lets stop this whole; pay tax and then get benefits back business, any benefits you are due should just be part of your tax code, rather than the current wasteful system of tax credits and other such crap. 

 

Skipped

Jalapeno said:

Hahahaha ! )

Who got the country into unsustainable levels of debt ?

Is that correct?
So why was George Osborne telling us that he was going to increase spending after 2007??
Like the Tories, you seem to be confused between wisdom and wisdom with hindsight.....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6975536.stm

Fretwired

Skipped said:

Fretwired said:

Proves my point doesn't it. With food banks and poverty the rich should pay more for more than five years. Good old Labour - they got us into this mess. A cynical ploy for votes whilst winking at the rich people that fund them to say it won't be around forever. Why shouldn't we have a more progressive tax system?

I have no idea what your point is.
Labour did not create the crisis.
The Labour Schools Minister, Ed Balls, did not bring down Lehman Bros.
But if you insist......
If we have a financial crisis which starts in Athens, is triggered by events in Athens, and then spreads across the world, and then impacts on the Uk......Is it OK if I call it "George Osborne's Mess"??
After all......what the hell was he doing? Why was he not preparing for this??

The Labour Party.....New Labour...... are are a party of competitive tax rates. Their 13 years in office is ample proof of this. And that is why the 50p rate will be for one term only.

My point is a Harold Wilson era Labour Party would have put taxes up on the rich until the national debt was reduced - there are many senior economists who say this should be done. Taxes should be cut for those in the middle to stimulate demand - the money they spend will attract taxes like VAT anyway.

My point was Labour claiming to raise income tax to 50p is just a soundbite for the traditional vote. Why put a five year term on it? Oh I know, they'll be another election. Why not simply come up with a plan and state clearly we need to raise X so taxes will be raised to Y and then we can turn the economy round. Because they haven't got a clue and they have to look good on Twatter and Fleecebook (same goes for the Tories).

The same with Mansion Tax - the simplest thing to do is adjust the Council Tax bands (which are overdue for some tweeking at the top). But Mansion Tax - rich bashing plays better with the population. It won't happen as it will cost too much to collect - the Council Tax is the way to go as collection systems are in place.

And as for the economic crisis Labour are very much to blame for the UK's crisis. Record borrowing to fund vanity projects (£16 billion wasted on an NHS computer system which could have funded 50,000 nurses) and two aircraft carriers, plus placating their City chums by removing the Bank of England's regulatory role and setting up the FSA which was stuffed full of ex-bankers and regulated bugger all. And then the wars, dodgy dossiers, selling gold at the bottom .. the list is endless.

Handsome_Chris

.

Fretwired

Skipped said:

Jalapeno said:

Hahahaha ! )

Who got the country into unsustainable levels of debt ?

Is that correct?
So why was George Osborne telling us that he was going to increase spending after 2007??
Like the Tories, you seem to be confused between wisdom and wisdom with hindsight.....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6975536.stm

He wasn't in power in 2007 and the financial crisis was only just beginning to bite. They also hadn't seen the books nor read Liam Byrne's note "Sorry there's no more money" ..... I can't see what point you're trying to make.

Sambostar

I'm voting UKIP.  Nigel reckons he'll drop all the positive ethnic discrimination.  People forget the suffragettes were women.  People have to fight their own corner.  A rich man can say he understands the poor man all he likes, still doesn't help the poor man's plight.

I'm also petitioning Nigel to legalise firearms.

chillidoggy

Blimey Fret, you're on a roll here! Full marks, and a few wisdoms!

Skipped

Fretwired said:

He wasn't in power in 2007 and the financial crisis was only just beginning to bite. They also hadn't seen the books nor read Liam Byrne's note "Sorry there's no more money" ..... I can't see what point you're trying to make.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

George Osborne (Michael Howard's third choice Shadow Chancellor) somehow failed to notice the "unsustainable levels of debt" in 2007  that Jalapeno has just mentioned.......
He was telling the country that he was going to increase spending....and he was telling us with a cheery smile on his face.......

capo4th

Ed Balls and Ed Milliband scare the shit out of me. Cameron is a prune but the country is doing well from an economic perspective under his leadership. Either way I will still pay a shitload of tax.

hugbot

capo4th said:

Ed Balls and Ed Milliband scare the shit out of me. Cameron is a prune but the country is doing well from an economic perspective under his leadership. Either way I will still pay a shitload of tax.

I don't claim to be a genius with economics but when I see stories like "the country is experiencing growth in xyz" all the while alongside stories about deepening poverty and economic inequality for average people I cant help but wonder exactly what kind of "growth" it is.

Fretwired

Skipped said:

Fretwired said:

He wasn't in power in 2007 and the financial crisis was only just beginning to bite. They also hadn't seen the books nor read Liam Byrne's note "Sorry there's no more money" ..... I can't see what point you're trying to make.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

George Osborne (Michael Howard's third choice Shadow Chancellor) somehow failed to notice the "unsustainable levels of debt" in 2007  that Jalapeno has just mentioned.......
He was telling the country that he was going to increase spending....and he was telling us with a cheery smile on his face.......

Sorry to disappoint but check out an interview with Osborne and Alexander in which they were shocked at the true levels of debt. They only found out when they took power - and you can't take anything someone says three years from an election that seriously.

And to put things into context we are paying as much in interest for the national debt as we do on defence and the UK can borrow money at a cheap rate. If interest rates rise the UK is fucked.

Drew_TNBD

hugbot said:

capo4th said:

Ed Balls and Ed Milliband scare the shit out of me. Cameron is a prune but the country is doing well from an economic perspective under his leadership. Either way I will still pay a shitload of tax.

I don't claim to be a genius with economics but when I see stories like "the country is experiencing growth in xyz" all the while alongside stories about deepening poverty and economic inequality for average people I cant help but wonder exactly what kind of "growth" it is.

But there are always stories about deepening poverty. Always. There are organizations and charities who very existence is predicated on poverty and inequality continuing to exist.

Sambostar

The lib/lab/con argument creases me up.  Just shoot the mofos.  They are all the same.  Some women got her coat caught in a tube train and almost died as the station was so overcrowded.  We are well sophisticated.

When Putin invades I'II welcome him with open arms.

Skipped

Fretwired said:

Sorry to disappoint but check out an interview with Osborne and Alexander in which they were shocked at the true levels of debt.

If you are moving on to a discussion about "secret debt"......WTF.....then that is indeed a deeply disappointing argument from you..
George Osborne's spending plans in 2007 are pretty important when we are discussing his attitude to Labour spending before the crash.
At around the same time Cameron said this;
"As a free marketeer by conviction, It won't suprise you to hear me say, the problem of the last decade, has been too much regulation."
David Cameron - A Conservative Economic Strategy. March 2008.

So......if the Tories had been in power Fred the Shred would have had even less regulation to worry about.

Sambostar

All Tory/liebour/lib voters need to be ethnically cleansed.

capo4th

Just imagine Ed Balls sat down with his Casio scientific calculator a pencil some magic beans and a rubber trying to work out a budget for the UK........

iseverynamegone

Pisses me off that the Left is always portrayed as soft as shit. We need a bit more Stalinism I reckon.