The cricket thread

iseverynamegone

Should we try Stokes at 3?  He has proven in quite a few knocks that he can adapt this game when needed and leave good balls and dig in and he can certainly attack should we ever get an opening partnership to see off the new ball. I know he normally bats lower but tbh the way things have gone he is often in when the ball is fairly new. 

That said I’d be happy to see them give Moeen a run there. 

Beyond Vince is there anywhere else to turn?

scrumhalf

When Woakes was getting his ton there was a lot of comment about how conventionally he played, and that he could fill in as an emergency opener with that sort of technique. Maybe put him at 3? Or he is too valuiable coming in at 8 and propping up the failures of others? 

I've read a lot about Joe Denly being eyed up as a surprise pick for Sri Lanka -his batting has been okay and his bowling has proved surprisingly valuable. He could fill in at 3. He's not in the first flush of youth, but then neither is Ian Bell. I'd be happy to see Bell picked, he might be able to exert some calm influence on the younger players.

Simon Hughes mentioned something interesting about opening the batting these days. Bowlers can now warm up to their hearts' content on a strip not too far from the one being used. In days gone by they didn't have that luxury afforded to them, which meant that they were warming up as bowlers in the first few overs of their opening spells, giving the opening batsmen time to get their eye in. Now they're on it from the first ball.

On to the final test. Do we pick some fringe/untried players or go for the throat? I'd be tempted to rest Jimmy, Cook might be absent due to imminent sprog arrival and Bairstow might be sent to bed early with no dinner. I think they'd be nuts not to try Rory Burns.

Teetonetal

 sixstringsupplies said:

I always enjoy the post match analysis. On Sky they are talking about who takes the gloves next match? who bats at 3? Does Woakes play if he is fit? Possibly drop Rashid and just play Moeen Ali as the spinner?

It has been an enjoyable series. But it does highlight the dearth of test match batting. Makes you worry about the test game and where it will be in the next 5 years.

I would drop Rashid. I think if Mooen is on form with the ball, then he is a better bet, Root seems to trust him a lot more.

Mid to Lower order could easily be:

Stokes 5, Bairstow or Butler 6, Ali 7, Woakes 8, Curran 9, Broad 10, Anderson 11

You could potential leave out Curran or Woakes for Bairstow / Buttler, but I like the left arm option of Curran, if he bowls tidily it offers the batsman something else to think about, with unusual angles of delivery etc) 

But what to do with Positions 1-4? Root ought to be 4, not 3 . Worth England brining in 3 new batsman for the dead rubber?

Stuckfast

Heartfeltdawn said:
Nah. Rashid's quite a floaty leg spinner. A leg spinner like Kumble or Afridi would have been a challenge as they were leggies who bowled into the wicket more. It's the same with offies. Moeen is a bowl into the wicket kind of offie as was Swann. That works fine on a wicket like Southampton but doesn't work anywhere near as well in Australia. Offies like Ashwin and Lyon bowl more over the top when the deliver the ball and thus get the bounce on Aussie wickets that Moeen didn't show last winter. 

A leg spinner like Kumble or Afridi would have been more of a challenge because they were better bowlers! Swann did well on his first tour of Australia and Moeen would've done well too if he'd been in form and not carrying a hand injury. Rashid is a short guy who has a low action, I don't recall seeing him get much bounce on any wicket -- his main weapon is a well disguised googly, but Kohli & co don't seem to be having any trouble picking it and he's not landing the leggie well enough to make it a big threat. Mo was getting plenty of balls to bounce today.

sixstringsupplies

Teetonetal said:

I would drop Rashid. I think if Mooen is on form with the ball, then he is a better bet, Root seems to trust him a lot more.

Mid to Lower order could easily be:

Stokes 5, Bairstow or Butler 6, Ali 7, Woakes 8, Curran 9, Broad 10, Anderson 11

You could potential leave out Curran or Woakes for Bairstow / Buttler, but I like the left arm option of Curran, if he bowls tidily it offers the batsman something else to think about, with unusual angles of delivery etc) 

But what to do with Positions 1-4? Root ought to be 4, not 3 . Worth England brining in 3 new batsman for the dead rubber?

Yes its amazing how much Joe Root looked like the Joe Root we know when he came in at 4 and not 3.  
Same for Moeen - when he is selected as the "second spinner" he seems to thrive off it. Can't handle the pressure of being the number one spinner.

Apparently here is a "major" announcement from the ECB at midday.  Potentially Ali Cook's retirement announcement. I hope not...

Anyway, standard English Test summer - paper over the tracks ready for a whipping in Sri Lanka this winter. 

Gassage

Ali Cook retires.

sad day. Top bloke

Teetonetal

Sad, India and aus away wins will be career highlights I'm sure.

Now drop him for the final test and get 2 new openers in!

Gassage

Stuckfast said:

Heartfeltdawn said:
Nah. Rashid's quite a floaty leg spinner. A leg spinner like Kumble or Afridi would have been a challenge as they were leggies who bowled into the wicket more. It's the same with offies. Moeen is a bowl into the wicket kind of offie as was Swann. That works fine on a wicket like Southampton but doesn't work anywhere near as well in Australia. Offies like Ashwin and Lyon bowl more over the top when the deliver the ball and thus get the bounce on Aussie wickets that Moeen didn't show last winter. 

A leg spinner like Kumble or Afridi would have been more of a challenge because they were better bowlers! Swann did well on his first tour of Australia and Moeen would've done well too if he'd been in form and not carrying a hand injury. Rashid is a short guy who has a low action, I don't recall seeing him get much bounce on any wicket -- his main weapon is a well disguised googly, but Kohli & co don't seem to be having any trouble picking it and he's not landing the leggie well enough to make it a big threat. Mo was getting plenty of balls to bounce today.

Afridi a better bowler? On which planet?

sixstringsupplies

Teetonetal said:

Sad, India and aus away wins will be career highlights I'm sure.

Now drop him for the final test and get 2 new openers in!

yeah India away was special but the Ashes 10/11 tops it for me.

He most definitely deserves a farewell test. No pressure to perform, probably get a double ton!

Heartfeltdawn

Stuckfast said:

A leg spinner like Kumble or Afridi would have been more of a challenge because they were better bowlers! Swann did well on his first tour of Australia and Moeen would've done well too if he'd been in form and not carrying a hand injury. Rashid is a short guy who has a low action, I don't recall seeing him get much bounce on any wicket -- his main weapon is a well disguised googly, but Kohli & co don't seem to be having any trouble picking it and he's not landing the leggie well enough to make it a big threat. Mo was getting plenty of balls to bounce today.

It isn't just height per se that gives bounce to a leg break or an off break. Anil Kumble is 1.85m tall, Shahid Afridi 1.82m, and Stuart Macgill 1.83m. The first two were predominately overspin leg break bowlers. MacGill got way more turn than both of the first two because he bowled with a lot more sidespin. The rough rule of thumb. 

Overspin = more bounce, less turn. 
Sidespin = more turn, less bounce

Simon Hughes did a good piece on side spin versus overspin in the 2005 Ashes with Warne getting Trescothick caught behind. You can clearly see the variation in terms of seam position when released: more subtle and not covered by Hughes is the arm position relative to the perpendicular when released. The delivery Warne bowls with more sidespin has a slightly lower arm than the overspun delivery. 



So at the Ageas Bowl you had a wicket close to perfect for an spinner who bowls overspun deliveries. Once the ball grips in the wicket, then you get the natural variations on a worn wicket: odd bounce high and low, massive turn as we saw with some of those LBW shouts against Kohli. As we saw with Rashid, the lower arm and the sidespun deliveries didn't have very much effect. You then look at Ashwin. He's flightier than Moeen and some of the analysis showed that he was having trouble finding the right pace to bowl on the wicket. He's not so much about the overspin at Moeen. 

Swann was OK on his first Australia tour but still averaged 40 against a less than stellar Aussie side as part of a bowling unit that had them for toast. Compare that against the career records of some spin bowlers who played in Australia (photo supplied by one SK Warne): 

https://imgur.com/hihh8F7

The lowest average on there is Mushtaq Ahmed. He bowled with a high action and overspin. Consequently this meant he had a ripper googly and a leg break that didn't turn much. Saqlain used overspin. Kumble overspin versus sidespin. 

Richie Benaud bowled with a lot of overspin. So he adapted. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/richie-benaud-a-custodian-of-the-art-of-leg-spin-he-put-cricket-in-a-debt-to-him-which-it-will-never-10167478.html

I can also speak from personal experience as someone who was very much an overspinning leg break bowler when he started county youth cricket and managed to flip it around by the time he was 19 to be able to change it depending on the type of wicket. 

Stuckfast

Gassage said:Afridi a better bowler? On which planet?

Actually that's a fair point, Afridi was also a one-day specialist really. But at least he would also occasionally play a match-winning innings with the bat.

Heartfeltdawn

Teetonetal said:

Sad, India and aus away wins will be career highlights I'm sure.

Now drop him for the final test and get 2 new openers in!

Nah, give him a proper farewell. Let him go out with some crowd applause as he bloody well deserves it. 

And then beg him to act as a batting consultant for the next generation. Can't see him being much of a media pundit or commentator. 

Gassage

I think that there’s a lot of overanalysis here. The simple fact is that India have a batting order with 9 Righthanders and Sharma conveniently dug a crater by going round the wicket that’s a lot easier for an off spinner to exploit rather than a leg spinner. Having batted myself on the Lords pitch the day after he did this at Lords 2014, I’ve never seeen such a hole in the danger area before and he did it yet again,.

Heartfeltdawn

Gassage said:

I think that there’s a lot of overanalysis here. 

After analysis, I believe this to be wrong. I sent it upstairs and Joel Wilson decided to overturn your decision. 

Definitely the crater made a difference in this Test but you've still had the situation of Moeen comprehensively outbowling two other slow bowlers. Kohli was right when they said they'd picked the wrong team: Jadeja on that wicket would be been a right handful. 

Gassage

You’re forgetting how many left handlers England have!

Heartfeltdawn

Gassage said:

You’re forgetting how many left handlers England have!

Which hasn't stopped Jadeja in the past, given that the guy he's dismissed most in Test cricket is that chap who's just announced his swansong. Coincidentally that same chap is also Ashwin's top bunny. 

Gassage

Heartfeltdawn said:

Gassage said:

You’re forgetting how many left handlers England have!

Which hasn't stopped Jadeja in the past, given that the guy he's dismissed most in Test cricket is that chap who's just announced his swansong. Coincidentally that same chap is also Ashwin's top bunny. 

But the crater is outside a left handlers leg stump

scrumhalf

Stuckfast said:

Gassage said:Afridi a better bowler? On which planet?

Actually that's a fair point, Afridi was also a one-day specialist really. But at least he would also occasionally play a match-winning innings with the bat.

Yes, he could really get his teeth into that.

Heartfeltdawn

Gassage said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Gassage said:

You’re forgetting how many left handlers England have!

Which hasn't stopped Jadeja in the past, given that the guy he's dismissed most in Test cricket is that chap who's just announced his swansong. Coincidentally that same chap is also Ashwin's top bunny. 

But the crater is outside a left handlers leg stump

Yep. 

Gassage

Heartfeltdawn said:

Gassage said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Gassage said:

You’re forgetting how many left handlers England have!

Which hasn't stopped Jadeja in the past, given that the guy he's dismissed most in Test cricket is that chap who's just announced his swansong. Coincidentally that same chap is also Ashwin's top bunny. 

But the crater is outside a left handlers leg stump

Yep. 

So you kick it away.