The Rugby Union Thread

lloyd

kjdowd said:

lloyd;1009818" said:

On the citing commission side, I think the record shows that the bigger (and English speaking) nations have had an easier ride on decisions, I include Wales in that. I think French and Italian (internationally Fiji, Tonga etc) players have had harsher punishments than the home nations for similar offences.

I'm genuinely interested in this because instinctively I'd agree. However, you say that you think the record shows... and I think it is here that this potentially falls apart. As human beings, we are programmed not to understand trends or broader statistical truths but rather to focus on events. Therefore, we'll look at 2 incidents - one ending in a citing and one not - and says that there is bias towards the bigger nations, when of course an isolated comparison shows nothing of the sort.

My instinct is to agree with you on this - and certainly the scheduling of the last World Cup was pretty iffy on the tier 2 nations - but I'd love to see the actual stats. Do minor nations get cited more often?

Without having the time to go through all incidents over the last few years it's my opinion from recent banning so that French and Italian players get the shittier end of the stick in terms of length of bans for what I'd consider similar offences. Certainly in the last 2 world cups I though that the Pacific island nations got a few bans where tier one nations avoided Citings for similar offences. The scheduling is clearly an issue, though I don't think that it was as bad this WC. I think my main issue with refs is that they consistently make big errors, factor in the fact that rugby union is probably the sport that is most influenced by a referees interpretation. I know that the "big" team often seem like they are getting the decisions but that's a day product of them being 'on top' and having the momentum. I don't see huge errors like this in football, errors are made yes, but rugby union comes across so amateurish in comparison...look at Scorlands last few matches-nobody can deny that they were knocked out of the WC by a terrible decision that should have been got right. They also lost to Wales to a try that the try scorer was about 5 metres offside, despite reviewing it on video all the officials missed it. For me that's simply not good enough, those decisions should be made rcorrectly as the video ref can review it over and over. If you think (not you) that's me bitching and moaning about the ref rather than wanting a certain standard of officiating for the game I love then fair enough.

tbm

lloyd said:

Here's the Sexton incident. http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/players-fans-accuse-johnny-sexton-play-acting/

Two things: Firstly, He does hit the part of his head that he holds. You can see it clearly in the second angle. He was flipped. He has no record of that type of play acting but it's disappointing and embarrassing. But It's hardly Rivaldo getting hit by a ball in the shin, then going down clutching his head. People need to cop on. I'd hope fellow players and the coach will have a word with him though. Secondly, nobody has been targeted like he has this 6 Nations. And I don't mean like you'd target a player in the normal course of a game, I mean late, and off-the-ball hits. In the France game there were two very late hits, and one where he was pushed over by a French forward about 30 yards from the where the ball was being played. No action was ever taken, in fact the ref jumped over Sexton after he was pushed over on one occasion. If it happens repeatly without sanction you'd get frustrated. Like a said, it's disappointing. He's known to be narky but he's not known as a cheat so I'd hope we won't see it from him again.

lloyd

tbm said:

lloyd said:

Here's the Sexton incident. http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/players-fans-accuse-johnny-sexton-play-acting/

Two things: Firstly, He does hit the part of his head that he holds. You can see it clearly in the second angle. He was flipped. He has no record of that type of play acting but it's disappointing and embarrassing. But It's hardly Rivaldo getting hit by a ball in the shin, then going down clutching his head. People need to cop on. I'd hope fellow players and the coach will have a word with him though. Secondly, nobody has been targeted like he has this 6 Nations. And I don't mean like you'd target a player in the normal course of a game, I mean late, and off-the-ball hits. In the France game there were two very late hits, and one where he was pushed over by a French forward about 30 yards from the where the ball was being played. No action was ever taken, in fact the ref jumped over Sexton after he was pushed over on one occasion. If it happens repeatly without sanction you'd get frustrated. Like a said, it's disappointing. He's known to be narky but he's not known as a cheat so I'd hope we won't see it from him again.

For me that is as clear cut overacting to get a player a card, yeah he grabs part of his head that's been hit but he appeals then hits the deck, it's shameful behaviour for me. I'm sure he's hurt and it was foul play. You deal with that by asking the captain to ask the ref to take a look at the incident. I can't condone this type of behaviour or mitigate it because of him being targeted.

Rocker

digitalscream said:

Rocker said:

Congratulations to England. Ref fing was bad throughout the 6N, in some cases embarrassingly so. If I, who did not play Rugby, can see this, why can't referees see this too?

Actually, what I find amazing is that in the 900-odd posts in this thread since the beginning of the tournament, people still think that there's more to be said on the subject of officiating with one-line complaints

There have been a significant number of detailed descriptions of foul play that was not punished already posted here.  I find it hard to understand why with the benefit of video replay etc. that some calls by the referee are wrong.  Easy enough to miss the odd offside but when everyone is offside, surely someone notices!  What the hell are they doing there if they don't?

koneguitarist

@digitalscream first of all my points, citings/bans and unfair reffing, two totally different issues.

There is no doubt in most people's mind that some nations have much larger bans, and are more likely to be cited than others, if you do not see that, I wonder if you actually watch much rugby. 

England players have traditionally had very low bans for foul play, and also seem to get less citings.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/bargoedboy/image_zpscoxyui0h.jpeg

Should this be a citing? 

fretmeister

No. Show the full clip.

fretmeister

You're still the only person in the English speaking rugby watching world who thinks it. And apparently in the French speaking world too.

And in picking that pic rather than show the actual clip you show your bias.

kjdowd

Dylan Hartley was only remarking on this the other day, and enthusiastically agreeing that England players don't get cited or banned. Mind you, I could barely hear him over Chris Ashton. Utter one-eyed nonsense.

kjdowd

Have no idea whether that should be a citing as it is a still, and haven't seen the footage. Do you have a link to the footage?

koneguitarist

Regarding unfair reffing, we have all seen it for most teams, does that make it right? I suppose if everybody gets a bad deal from time to time it's ok then. 

To me bad reffing is bad reffing, when Wales beat Ireland a few years back we won by a try, which should have been disallowed, not really the refs fault but the TJ at the time.  It was a mistake, who knows what might have happened if it was disallowed, we will never know.

But I am talking about one sided reffing in a game, don't care who it is against, it's wrong. 

koneguitarist

Anthony Watson has both hands holding the face of a French player, which we all know is illegal, that's plain to see, and you want me to show you a clip now as well?

I certainly don't think he did it on purpose but intent is not relevant, only the action. Now if you do not agree that is a citing, nothing will change your mind and I am wasting my time, so I will stop. 

fretmeister

No ref or citing commission acts based on a still photo. You have posted that pic purely because it is prejudicial rather than investigatory and in doing so you conceal the full evidence available which is the clip.

Poor show.

kjdowd

^ Agreed. And I'd be genuinely interested to see the footage. Didn't see the incident during the game. If it is anything like the Francis one of course he should be cited. Gouging is abhorrent. But can't say without seeing the footage.

fretmeister

I don't agree it is a citing. No one else on here (so far) thinks it is a citing. No one on the telly thought it was a citing. The French team management, who are allowed to report it to the commissioner, didn't think it was worthy of a mention.

And from my broken French there is zero mention of it in French press.

You stand alone like David Icke.

koneguitarist

Not sure how to get the clip from BBC , but if you look at BBC I player six nations, it happens 10 seconds into match, or about 37 mins into program. Just reviewed it again to see if it was as bad as I thought.

I admit I was wrong. It was worse. Fickou jumps to catch ball gets both hands on ball, Watson jumps catches Fickou on face with one hand whilst in the air, then closes other hand round face then drags him to ground. Now I am not an expert like you rugby gods on here, but he could have received  a YC just for taking the player out in the air. Or just catching a player in face by accident, when you add in all the elements, it's pretty damning. 

camf

Not sure that's fair to koneguitarist... the fact both of his hands are all over his face is pretty poor. I saw it at the time and thought it didn't look great. I think it could easily have been cited for wreckless or dangerous play but it wasn't and that's fine. Nobody wants to see players cited but if you have your hands all over an opposition player's face, you're in dangerous territory. The argument is that an action like that on the part of other teams (lesser teams?) is more likely to be viewed as dangerous or wreckless, presumably because they're more likley to be playing desperately, on the back foot. That makes sense to me. The losing/weaker team is more likely to be precived as more likley to resort to desperate or wreckless tactics... not fair, but easy to see why it could happen.

fretmeister

koneguitarist said:

Not sure how to get the clip from BBC , but if you look at BBC I player six nations, it happens 10 seconds into match, or about 37 mins into program. Just reviewed it again to see if it was as bad as I thought.

I admit I was wrong. It was worse. Fickou jumps to catch ball gets both hands on ball, Watson jumps catches Fickou on face with one hand whilst in the air, then closes other hand round face then drags him to ground. Now I am not an expert like you rugby gods on here, but he could have received  a YC just for taking the player out in the air. Or just catching a player in face by accident, when you add in all the elements, it's pretty damning. 

Both jump for the ball. Both aim to catch the ball. 

Are you going to apologise for claiming it was a tackle?

koneguitarist

@fretmeister are you saying its a tackle? And do you want ME to apologise?

fretmeister

You said it was a tackle. Up there ^ somewhere. It wasn't. You misrepresented it, as you attempted to do again with a still photo.

kjdowd

Actually, I've watched that and it's ugly. Don't think there was intent but he could have broken his neck.