Another music pub closing - you know why don't you?

thomasross20

Err.... it's also down to rental costs of pubs and building on the high street in general. High housing/rental costs are crippling.

stickyfiddle

It's not just pubs and bands - it's that the other options have increased dramatically. The U.K. Has a much bigger "eating out" culture than ever before, and if you stay home everyone has a big screen TV with Mario kart and FIFA and COD and Netflix, so the appeal of an expensive pub selling Stella and Strongbow for £4 a pint loses its appeal. 

viz

I went to the http://steamandrye.com bar in London the other day. It was rammed and there was a rock band milking it. Here's their Livin' on a Prayer solo. They were great and the young crowd of city types were hoppin'.

TheDarkLord

stickyfiddle said:

It's not just pubs and bands - it's that the other options have increased dramatically. The U.K. Has a much bigger "eating out" culture than ever before, and if you stay home everyone has a big screen TV with Mario kart and FIFA and COD and Netflix, so the appeal of an expensive pub selling Stella and Strongbow for £4 a pint loses its appeal. 

Yep

Moe_Zambeek

£4 a pint? Cheap!

ICBM

I actually assumed it was going to be because of noise regulations...

If it's due to falling demand, popular culture changes over time. There isn't much of a market for music-hall these days either.

Sad if you're in one of the jobs that depends on a particular type of culture that's going out of fashion - like being in a classic rock band - but that's the way of the world unfortunately. You have to adapt and move on.

thomasross20

So what music should we be playing, do you guys reckon?

Moe_Zambeek

thomasross20;847242" said:

So what music should we be playing, do you guys reckon?

That depends on what you want out of it:

Gigs every weekend, all year round, that pay reasonable money?

- wedding band; ceilidh band; tribute band.

Gigs regularly that pay ok-ish?

- up to date covers performed impeccably with a good-looking, tight band.
- if you're in certain parts of the country and can travel, blues is still a niche draw.
- excellent original material that has a reasonably decent draw (mod, ska, indie, punk, metal all have niche support across the country).
- Acoustic duos doing Americana, folk or quirky covers.

Irregular, poor paying gigs?
- worn out covers played in a desultory way with no energy or originality.
- music hall

I believe the biggest factor is how hard you're prepared to work, to be frank, assuming that the band is decent.

Danny1969

thomasross20 said:

So what music should we be playing, do you guys reckon?

I wouldn't want to limit a good band to one sort of music. If you only play classic rock then your gonna struggle to bring in younger people. The best band I'm in (biggest earner) play a lot of classic rock but also stuff from Bruno Mars, Paolo Nutini, Ed Sheeran and stuff like that. 

I think live music appreciation is a bit demographic maybe. In my local area it's what band playing where that dictates who's pubs going to be busy. In my local you can't move when a popular band is on it's rammed. 

Here's a typical Saturday night :

thomasross20

Cheers guys 8)

TheDarkLord

ICBM said:

I actually assumed it was going to be because of noise regulations...

If it's due to falling demand, popular culture changes over time. There isn't much of a market for music-hall these days either.

Sad if you're in one of the jobs that depends on a particular type of culture that's going out of fashion - like being in a classic rock band - but that's the way of the world unfortunately. You have to adapt and move on.

My thoughts exactly.  For me it's not a job.  It's a hobby which is becoming less enjoyable.

thecolourbox

A few thoughts from a young hipster on this kind of thing, more like invitations to decide whether it's a factor or not than me stating my thoughts as fact

1) music tastes are probably more varied than ever, and bizarrely the stuff that's in the charts is not what most people are actually listening to. There's also more choice than there ever has been due to huge back catalogues, and that can only increase in time. Presumably that makes it harder to put a good pub band together that appeals to the public enough for them to venture out to see you and therefore make the pub money?

2) isn't a pub paying not much for live music a bit like us expecting our local pub to sell beer at supermarket or even Wetherspoon prices?

3) a pub isn't what young people necessarily look for in a night out, I don't really drink or go out in that way to be fair but observing others in my generation it doesn't seem all that popular. Presumably because none of them can string proper sentences together without saying "and I was like.... And he was like.... Yeahhhh you know?" and pubs rely more on good company in that respect than bars and clubs where you just get smashed, can't hear a wordd anybody's saying, and just act like a dick "cos it's like well funny you know, proper bantz"

4) £4 per pint?????? Jesus, I'm glad Birmingham isn't that much to get watered

jpfamps

Moe_Zambeek said:

When it gets right down to it, most bands are by definition average and quite a lot are below average. 

You are of course assuming a Gaussian distribution.

Blueingreen

I agree gigging's getting tougher.  And I agree about the age profile of the audience.

For me the roots of the problem go right back to the punk/post punk era.  Before that bands did an apprenticeship playing covers, then if they were so inclined started to filter in their own material.  I saw Slik with Midge Ure in the mid/late 70s and although they'd been on Top of the Pops with a hit single their stage act was mainly covers.  That was a tradition going back to the Beatles and further.

With punk and post punk came the idea that if you were going to be creative you had to write your own material from the off, and cover bands were a bit naff.  They became entertainment for the unfashionable and the old, weddings and office parties.  Being in a terrible own material band gave you more kudos than being in a good cover band.

The problem is that the audience for original material bands without an established name is minuscule, so if you want a decent number of people to turn out for your band you still need to play covers.  But  IMO cover bands have never recovered from the stigma cast over them at that point.  

Of course some people will quite rightly say I don't give a shit what wannabe trendies and snobs think, I'm happy playing to unpretentious people who know what they like.  But whether folk like it or not, these attitudes play out in a way that hurts cover bands. People are aspirational and they want to be where the smart, the cool, and the pretty people are. The association of cover bands with scruffy pubs, older punters, everything a bit down-market means there's a steadily dwindling market for live music.

To some extent the material is being dictated to bands.  Over the years I've played in original material bands as well as cover bands playing funk, soul, disco, electronica, blues, jump-jive and swing.  I haven't played a lot of rock (although I'm in a rock cover band at the moment).  But it's getting harder and harder to get away with anything minority taste.  Classic rock is still probably the safest genre if you want to attract a decent-ish crowd.  The problem with that is far too many bands playing the same 2 or 3 dozen outworn "classics".  It's not hard to see why the more intellectually curious member of the audience get bored with that and start drifting away to other entertainment.  It's a vicious cycle.

Drew_TNBD

Personally it's nights like Danny's in that photo that make me not want to bother going out to see bands.

thomasross20

@Drew_fx - how come? Too busy? Your gigs have seemed pretty also, no?

EricTheWeary

Drew_fx said:

Personally it's nights like Danny's in that photo that make me not want to bother going out to see bands.

The pubs locally where I could go see bands are pretty dreary, I have to really want to see a particular band (more likely that they are friends rather than I'm feeling desperate to see someone murder Living on a Prayah) so I do get why the alternative nights out (or in) are more attractive. I'd love to see Danny's band but I'm not sure I'd make the 300 mile round trip. Just curious as to your comment though. The typical pub gig photo has the lunchtime specials board in the background and one person dancing (I've posted these but I'm not alone) and I'd understand why many people would think that's not what they signed on for in a band but that's nothing like Danny 's picture. Edit - if Drew was being ironic then ignore the above but I've no idea if he was or not!

ICBM

Blueingreen said:

I agree gigging's getting tougher.  And I agree about the age profile of the audience.

For me the roots of the problem go right back to the punk/post punk era.  Before that bands did an apprenticeship playing covers, then if they were so inclined started to filter in their own material.  I saw Slik with Midge Ure in the mid/late 70s and although they'd been on Top of the Pops with a hit single their stage act was mainly covers.  That was a tradition going back to the Beatles and further.

With punk and post punk came the idea that if you were going to be creative you had to write your own material from the off, and cover bands were a bit naff.  They became entertainment for the unfashionable and the old, weddings and office parties.  Being in a terrible own material band gave you more kudos than being in a good cover band.

The problem is that the audience for original material bands without an established name is minuscule, so if you want a decent number of people to turn out for your band you still need to play covers.  But  IMO cover bands have never recovered from the stigma cast over them at that point.  

Of course some people will quite rightly say I don't give a shit what wannabe trendies and snobs think, I'm happy playing to unpretentious people who know what they like.  But whether folk like it or not, these attitudes play out in a way that hurts cover bands. People are aspirational and they want to be where the smart, the cool, and the pretty people are. The association of cover bands with scruffy pubs, older punters, everything a bit down-market means there's a steadily dwindling market for live music.

To some extent the material is being dictated to bands.  Over the years I've played in original material bands as well as cover bands playing funk, soul, disco, electronica, blues, jump-jive and swing.  I haven't played a lot of rock (although I'm in a rock cover band at the moment).  But it's getting harder and harder to get away with anything minority taste.  Classic rock is still probably the safest genre if you want to attract a decent-ish crowd.  The problem with that is far too many bands playing the same 2 or 3 dozen outworn "classics".  It's not hard to see why the more intellectually curious member of the audience get bored with that and start drifting away to other entertainment.  It's a vicious cycle.

All this, but especially the bit in bold.

Why do bands always seem to want to play the same tired "classics"? There are *thousands* of other great, very well-known songs that are not clichéd to death in the same way.

For example, if you're going to play a Killers song, *don't* play Mr. Brightside. Everyone does. It's boring. If you're going to play a Free song, for god's sake don't play All Right Now. etc etc

Unless you're going to do these songs in a totally different style, you will not do them any better than the hundreds of other bands who already do them and you will be just another covers band who no-one remembers because you're the same as all the others.

I also think most covers bands try too hard to play the songs in the original style and not enough in their own style. There's no point in covering twenty songs in totally different styles as closely as possible to the original records - you'll never be close enough and again you'll be just another covers band. That's what the jukebox is for, anyway.

Either stick to a much narrower genre for the covers, or just play the *songs* as if they're originals, in your own style and with your own sound. Change whatever you need/want to. The reason punters don't generally care about originals bands is because they don't know any of the songs, and it becomes just a wall of sound with no reference points. So give them songs they know - but play as a band, not as a jukebox.

The old bands who started out playing covers and then became rock stars with originals did this. The ones who went to all the time and trouble to learn the songs note-perfectly ended up playing weddings.

In my opinion, anyway...

Danny1969

Well it's no secret I'm in a lot of covers bands and play a lot of covers and have been for 30 years now. In the eighties you could gig every night of the week if you wanted to. Live music was everywhere, there was a real scene for rock music, especially for what we call Hair metal now. This petered off a bit into the nineties but even in the mid nineties we were giging 5 times a week, having a Monday night residency and gigging on thurs meant with the normal Fri, Sat and Sunday gigs being out 5 times a week was normal. We played mainly covers but added originals, recorded our original material and sold tapes. For our  original material  gigs we hired the halls, set our own PA up, selling the tickets by promoting ourselves. Back then with no email you had to post everything in the mail. No one I knew had a printer so flyers were often hand drawn. That band could sell out Portsmouths Rock gardens, a 500 people venue and did it time after time. 

These days recording your own music is easy with DAW computers  (we had a 4 track Tascam) you can email your invites rather than post, you can sell your music via mp3 rather than tapes you copied yourselfs .... it's all easier but no one's interested anymore. Music now has never been more accessible or easier to obtain and that's devalued it .... no one wants to come out to see an original band they have never heard of, so the venues can't sell the tickets and every gig ends up being 4 original bands on the same night being watched by their family and friends and hopefully the other bands if you can persuade em to stick around after their slot. 

Music in pubs is a different kettle of fish. Generally a pub can only offer things like pub quizs, pool table, maybe meals and Live music. So they always use live music as a carrot.  So it's never hard to get  a pub gig, no ones gotta sell any tickets but you gotta prove your worth if you want the venue to do well out of it and keep going. Now unfortunately you have to play what the people want to hear and it does tend to be the same old stuff. At every gig people will shout for Mr Brightside or Sex on fire, that's what they want to hear and they want to hear it like the record because they want to dance and singalong with the version they know, not some clever version that's gonna catch them out. Now we all tend to rock up songs like Mama Mia, Kids in America and so on so I'm not saying the covers got to be verbatim but generally it's got to be what they are expecting. Even more so for weddings and well paid corporate work, they do expect you to be a jukebox and to be honest if your singers pretty good and you learn the exact same drum \ guitar \ bass parts that are on the record then it WILL sound like the record to them. 

My favorite local band takes a different approach to me. All their versions are nothing like the original, with just one guitar, bass and drums they cleverly put their own take on every cover,  but as good as I think that is (and I go and see em every rare opportunity they play when I'm not playing ) I know they are doing gigs for less than half the money I am

Heartfeltdawn

Danny1969 said:

At every gig people will shout for Mr Brightside or Sex on fire, that's what they want to hear and they want to hear it like the record because they want to dance and singalong with the version they know, not some clever version that's gonna catch them out. 

I probably go to different pubs to you but in my experience the people shouting out the most in pubs are the people you should be listening to the least.