Gordon Smith and Richard's Guitars

GuitarMonkey

blueskunk said:

The only good thing about this we have a new finish on guitars, the dogs pubes finish which i beleive prs are gutted they didnt think of first.

I think Collings got there before them?

http://www.gruhn.com/photo/EZ5011b.jpg

ToneControl

octatonic said:

TTony said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Far too many people sit on their arses and bleat

On a different scale, but the existence of this forum shows what can be done, even whilst still sat on an arse (or chair).

We (as a forum discussion) have looked at this topic a few times over the years.

I would love for there to be an internationally recognised, UK based, viable guitar manufacturer.  A few people have tried to establish such a business, at different price points, through the years.  They've largely failed, not because of poor quality of product (GS being a possible exception), but because of the difficulties of competing against the established brands for the business of the average guitar buyer.

The difficulties are many - and affect most small businesses that try to grow.  

The conclusion usually is that it would take a wealthy and long-sighted investor/benefactor with a lot of spare time and general business management experience to work alongside a talented guitar designer/builder.  We have a few of the latter.

It would be a 10+ year project.

It is very difficult to launch a new guitar brand.

Most builders can only hope for a small slice of the market.

Jaden Rose seems to be kicking ass though, although it is still primarily a one man operation. (Not a criticism)

Manson guitars too- although they make most of their affordable guitars in Eastern Europe.

People know I'm training to be a luthier- I know will be able to make a good product- will I be able to successfully launch a brand?

Who knows.

It will be tough.

I honestly don't know if the UK can support a builder making a UK product for around a grand.

How many people where have actually bought a UK made guitar, for instance?

If not... why not?

I see most people going for Mex/Jap/Korean instruments these days.

Or USA Fenders/Gibsons.

I think we need a new shop that stocks UK handbuilt stuff like acoustic music co does with the USA acoustics

My trouble is: acoustics are unpredictable, unless a maker has made loads of a specific model you want, you need to try before you buy, so commissioning one seems risky to me, they are so different and personal. Same principle but less so for electrics, same with amps. the further you go from old standards, the less you know what you will get. I think it would be great if UK makers could make without a specific order, or some shop commission them, and stock them - a lot to ask for, I will do it if I win the lottery. 

btw I have an Alan Arnold, it sounds lovely, and 2 UK lap steels, I've owned more Uk made amps though

people are also wary of depreciation with a new brand. 

For some larger UK guitar makers I have not liked the product. I can't think of any easy way, unless there is a USP. Those ergonomic guitars you like may be a foot in the door for you

tbh, I think a lot of us like to follow the USA, if you sell stuff over there, people want your stuff here, that's probably the quickest way

Dave_Mc

blueskunk said:

The only good thing about this we have a new finish on guitars, the dogs pubes finish which i beleive prs are gutted they didnt think of first.

I'm no dog owner, but aren't dogs hairless down there? I have a vague feeling of reading somewhere (honest ) that dogs trail their bits in water to cool down.

DamianP

GuitarMonkey said:

blueskunk said:

The only good thing about this we have a new finish on guitars, the dogs pubes finish which i beleive prs are gutted they didnt think of first.

I think Collings got there before them?

http://www.gruhn.com/photo/EZ5011b.jpg

I think Epiphone were first,  sometime in the early sixties.

<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mouldynudger/media/65_coronet-silverfox_b3.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v403/mouldynudger/65_coronet-silverfox_b3.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 65_coronet-silverfox_b3.jpg"/></a>

Lixarto

I've not read the whole thread, but I had a fantastic GS1, which I stupidly sold.

Yay me

Dave_Mc

Oh you should read the whole thread, you're missing out. Now we're talking about whether dogs have pubes or not, and if they do, whether they improve a guitar's finish. Good times. I bagsy not being the one to do the investigative work on that question. Any volunteers?

streethawk

Dave_Mc said:

blueskunk said:

The only good thing about this we have a new finish on guitars, the dogs pubes finish which i beleive prs are gutted they didnt think of first.

I'm no dog owner, but aren't dogs hairless down there? I have a vague feeling of reading somewhere (honest ) that dogs trail their bits in water to cool down.

Not just dogs. 

EricTheWeary

Fancy saying GSG are rubbish when, clearly, what this discussion has established is that they are the dogs bollocks. :o3

I'll get me coat...

Dave_Mc

^ )

streethawk said:

Dave_Mc said:

blueskunk said:

The only good thing about this we have a new finish on guitars, the dogs pubes finish which i beleive prs are gutted they didnt think of first.

I'm no dog owner, but aren't dogs hairless down there? I have a vague feeling of reading somewhere (honest ) that dogs trail their bits in water to cool down.

Not just dogs. 

>:D<

Doug

Rox said:

Frankly, I'd think ANY 'terms' of business are no good if the products you're being sent cannot be returned and are impossible to sell due to quality control issues.  I'd rather shop where that attention to detail is present. 

+1, Totally agree, have a wisdom. There was a previous post on the old forum where someone stripped and refinished a Gordon Smith GS 2/Gypsy and did a great job, however, the pic's posted when stripped led me to believe I have better quality wood on my shed than what that thing was built from. As mentioned in previous post's it would be good if GS put their side of the story into the debate etc. All the best to Richardsguitars, a nice attitude compared to the box shifter type dealers.

Jez6345789

Hi 

Thought I would chip in here with my maiden post as its a subject that quite interests me, about the UK's attitude to making stuff.

I have nothing to do with guitar trade but do run a small business importing and distributing.I think the views expressed here especially by UK builders is exactly the same as in my business.Hence we  import from the US, Italy, Germany. Where people seem to over come the fear and stigma of failure and get on with the process of creating a product.

The wish from a lot of people here for an affordable UK produced design as well as higher priced means demand exists. 

I looked at Jaydens breakdown earlier in the thread and presented that way it does not make any economical sense or even seem possible but thats from the view point of most UK builders who are largely bespoke boutique operations selling into a niche market. As Jayden said he would not want to be Gibson.

I think the point being missed here is if you are going to be building a 600-700 pound guitar then you have to be thinking at selling more than a few hundred per year and you have to be realistic about buying and sourcing components. Something that seems alien to UK builders as they are all mostly wanting to build guitars and sell from the stand point of hand built, pixie dust and Unicorn horn nuts. In reality do Mercedes make every component that goes into their cars, do the bigger guitar manufacturers make all the necks and parts that go into making a budget or mid priced guitar no they source where appropriate, make what they can do well and assemble and finish. 

The real difference is thinking like a manufacturer not a bespoke builder, the skill set is quite different its not about building the best guitar you can its about managing supply chain, quality control, and making the right compromises that are acceptable to your target market. 

For example

A middle level home player, perhaps gigging out a few times a month, but a family to raise is not going to expect frets buffed by elves but needs a well set up working instrument that has a bit of cred and Kudos that they can make their own. They do not expect rare wood 1 or two piece bodies, old stock Honduras  Mahogany necks lovingly caressed into a unique profile, that is the very signature from the makers soul. 

Ultimately we can make guitars in the UK we just need a good design a well thought out marketing strategy and a little ambition, something we seem to have in short supply in the UK. 

As more of a marketing guy you also need a grass roots campaign to drive dealers to stock product, in the days of the internet its a hell of a lot easier to reach people and get that sort of vibe going. Demand from enthusiasts telling dealers is what puts a guitar in a store and makes the store think beyond their comfort zone. That said I get the impression in the UK that the whole Fender/Gibson style master dealer thing is all a bit of a monopolistic play to keep out independents by forcing stores to commit to specific space requirements and models. That said a scrappy upstart with a good grass roots following will easily give the big boys a bloody nose from time to time. 

A bit of a rant for starters but its a subject I am passionate about. 

regards jez

octatonic

Welcome Jez. You don't know what the hell you're talking about, of course, but welcome anyway.

Roland

octatonic said:

Welcome Jez. You don't know what the hell you're talking about, of course, but welcome anyway.

Now I beg to differ: the point he is making is that there is a lot more to being a successful guitar builder than knowing about guitars .... and that's not a nice way to greet a noob

octatonic

Roland said:

octatonic said:

Welcome Jez. You don't know what the hell you're talking about, of course, but welcome anyway.

Now I beg to differ: the point he is making is that there is a lot more to being a successful guitar builder than knowing about guitars .... and that's not a nice way to greet a noob

I was joking- hence the smiley.

No offence intended- I wasn't being serious.

Regarding the specifics of the post- I was going to edit and explain but I might as well do it here.

I understand his point- I'm saying it is based on a false idea of what the market can bear, what it takes to build a new guitar brand and what people like Jaden actually do.

Jaden isn't putting out a product to compete with the cork sniffer brand like Suhr, Anderson or PRS Private Stock.

There is no unicorn horn or any of the other stuff he puts in his post.

Jaden makes well made, functional rock guitars that are all made by him, with meticulous attention to detail.

They are well made but they aren't 'boutique' instruments.

They are more of the 'no nonsense rock guitar' type- although he uses *some* of the more exotic woods.

Regarding what it takes to build a brand- you need serious investment to do that so you either have to build slowly and ride out the rough times OR you need to have investors that are prepared to lose money for X years until the brand can be built.

There are plenty of builders out there that fabricate stuff in the far east (Levinson Blade for example) and then either assemble in UK/Europe or tweak them in UK/Europe.

The problems with doing that are the cost of shipping and more importantly the perception of the brand being a bit 2nd rate.

I admire Jaden for doing what he does- he is doing it all himself- or at least mostly.

I know this because I travelled out there to visit him last year and talk guitar building with him.

He was very generous with his time and had a lot of good advice.

ThePrettyDamned

Jez makes some good points. A British production line guitar would be great - something with a bit of British quirk, perhaps an alternative neck join to set or screw on - maybe an internal bolt? Buy some parts in, use standard quality hardware and finish them to a decent standard, with a few different pickup configurations - singles, buckers and something unusual designed by someone like ocp or mojo.

Thing is, people would still rather have fender.

Jez6345789

octatonic said:

Welcome Jez. You don't know what the hell you're talking about, of course, but welcome anyway. ;

Off course not :-)

martinw

ThePrettyDamned said:

Thing is, people would still rather have fender.

Exactly.

Sorry Jez, you're not wrong, but you don't understand the electric guitar market IMO, if you think a British manufacturer could just start up, invest a significant amount of money in a production line, and become a successful guitar maker in a short enough timescale to provide a return on investment before bankruptcy.

Octatonic is bang on. Doesn't matter how great a businessman/factory manager/production engineer you are unless your marketing guys can persuade the global public that a British guitar is a good thing. Not going to happen. If you went on Dragon's Den with this and asked for £100k, they'd turn you down because they'd know you haven't asked for enough money.

Jez6345789

Hi 

First off this is not a dig at Jayden Rose guitars, I used his name mostly as he had commented.

Also full props to the guy for standing up and being counted and making some good looking well respected guitars.

But it does say on his website only the best tonewood used for shredding and he also clearly states only 200 guitars a year, no imported parts etc etc. All of that sounds pretty boutique to my ears. It might not be the rarified air of Private Stock etc etc but at 1500-2k entry point its not aiming at Joe Blow playing down the Dog and Ferret.

I also appreciate quality and detail that Jayden does costs money.

The best analogy I can see here is the original Fender approach he used commonly available cheap local lumber workman like build practices and a competitive price point against Gibsons old school craftsman and imported exotic timbers.

I know you cannot build a 100 quid Chinese Tele copy in the UK but I still reckon you can design and build a modern version equivalent of the working mans guitar (Telecaster like) for £700 quid and make a profit.

You comment that importing parts is difficult due to shipping etc etc we import pallet and container loads of products every month and like everything there is a cost to doing that, but once you get your ducks lined up its just a process and not too costly if you plan well and get things on the water. You can land a container of stuff for less than 5k thats a shed load of bridges tuners or whatever else you need. 

As for branding costing years of investment capital and people preparing to make a long term loss, not in the modern world the bare bones can be done quickly and easily. Brand trust takes time but the basics can be done in the first 12 months and brand trust and loyalty are only important when you are ready to sell them the next product.

As for people wanting to buy Fender yes thats a well executed story and one people know, also sheer brand presence in the market place and good use of price points is part of the Fender strategy. So you can buy a Cabronita from 249/449/649/1500/2500 etc

But you can still pull in customers if you create a guitar with the right vibe that appeals. Scrappy upstart can always steal Fenders beans because when you get to that size its hard to turn on a dime and respond to the market. The Cabronita makes that case as a custom shop guitar that caught the imagination of the populous, but Fender by their own admission struggled to move quickly to get it into the market before independent builders were making similar due to pent up demand for an affordable version.

anyway I go on :-)

regards Jez 

martinw

Jez6345789 said:

As for branding costing years of investment capital and people preparing to make a long term loss, not in the modern world the bare bones can be done quickly and easily.

Have you any idea how much Blackstar spent to do just that?

Neither have I, but I'd bet it well into several hundreds of thousands. That's with the advantage of having several ex-Marshall people on board and building amps (for which the UK has a good global rep) not guitars (for which it doesn't)  AND they don't even manufacture in the UK.

The total investment must have been millions, with some fairly patient backers, I'd warrant.

Anyway, if it's that easy, get on with it.

octatonic

Jez6345789 said:

Hi 

First off this is not a dig at Jayden Rose guitars, I used his name mostly as he had commented.

Also full props to the guy for standing up and being counted and making some good looking well respected guitars.

But it does say on his website only the best tonewood used for shredding and he also clearly states only 200 guitars a year, no imported parts etc etc. All of that sounds pretty boutique to my ears. It might not be the rarified air of Private Stock etc etc but at 1500-2k entry point its not aiming at Joe Blow playing down the Dog and Ferret.

I also appreciate quality and detail that Jayden does costs money.

The best analogy I can see here is the original Fender approach he used commonly available cheap local lumber workman like build practices and a competitive price point against Gibsons old school craftsman and imported exotic timbers.

I know you cannot build a 100 quid Chinese Tele copy in the UK but I still reckon you can design and build a modern version equivalent of the working mans guitar (Telecaster like) for £700 quid and make a profit.

You comment that importing parts is difficult due to shipping etc etc we import pallet and container loads of products every month and like everything there is a cost to doing that, but once you get your ducks lined up its just a process and not too costly if you plan well and get things on the water. You can land a container of stuff for less than 5k thats a shed load of bridges tuners or whatever else you need. 

As for branding costing years of investment capital and people preparing to make a long term loss, not in the modern world the bare bones can be done quickly and easily. Brand trust takes time but the basics can be done in the first 12 months and brand trust and loyalty are only important when you are ready to sell them the next product.

As for people wanting to buy Fender yes thats a well executed story and one people know, also sheer brand presence in the market place and good use of price points is part of the Fender strategy. So you can buy a Cabronita from 249/449/649/1500/2500 etc

But you can still pull in customers if you create a guitar with the right vibe that appeals. Scrappy upstart can always steal Fenders beans because when you get to that size its hard to turn on a dime and respond to the market. The Cabronita makes that case as a custom shop guitar that caught the imagination of the populous, but Fender by their own admission struggled to move quickly to get it into the market before independent builders were making similar due to pent up demand for an affordable version.

anyway I go on :-)

regards Jez 

Firstly, "Joe Blow down the Dog and Ferret" frequently DOES have £1000+ guitars.

They might have been bought used though.

What is interesting is people don't just have one guitar anymore.

A lot of people have 3-4. 

Or 10.

I know more than a few people with more than 20 and they aren't pro players and they aren't minted.

They are obsessive though.

Gordon Smith are the closet to what you describe- basic guitars that are functional but not, in my opinion, especially well made and they don't push my buttons design-wise.

The thing about Fender and Gibson is they have a heritage.

People want to buy into that heritage.