Gordon Smith and Richard's Guitars

Jaden

well, the OP was interesting and I had seen it on facebook, a shame really..  GS should have been mortified that there was a hair in the finish and that conversation should only have ended in "we are sending out courier to collect"

as for the follow up conversation regarding the state of UK instrument manufacture, its all been said before on forums and with the same naiveity (not a criticism, after all, its not most of your area's of expertise)
there is a lot of discussion about the cost of a guitar to build, there also seems to be a definite resistance on builders actually turning a profit or God forbid, a profit margin that allows further investment in growing that business, replacing broken tooling, investing in new technologies, attending shows or trade shows as well as the myriad of other things that sap a manufacturing business dry. 
the expected value of the work of any of the top makers in this country (and I can name quite a few) just isnt realistic.. none of us sit around lighting cigars with 50's and  if you only bought one guitar a year from a UK maker, you could advance his business... alternatively, you could get a new iphone and sky TV contract, which together will add up to about the same...
but for the most part, people will continue to buy their $60 [insert brand name] far eastern made guitars... 

see now, Richard's rant has become catching

octatonic

Jaden said:

well, the OP was interesting and I had seen it on facebook, a shame really..  GS should have been mortified that there was a hair in the finish and that conversation should only have ended in "we are sending out courier to collect"

as for the follow up conversation regarding the state of UK instrument manufacture, its all been said before on forums and with the same naiveity (not a criticism, after all, its not most of your area's of expertise)
there is a lot of discussion about the cost of a guitar to build, there also seems to be a definite resistance on builders actually turning a profit or God forbid, a profit margin that allows further investment in growing that business, replacing broken tooling, investing in new technologies, attending shows or trade shows as well as the myriad of other things that sap a manufacturing business dry. 
the expected value of the work of any of the top makers in this country (and I can name quite a few) just isnt realistic.. none of us sit around lighting cigars with 50's and  if you only bought one guitar a year from a UK maker, you could advance his business... alternatively, you could get a new iphone and sky TV contract, which together will add up to about the same...
but for the most part, people will continue to buy their $60 [insert brand name] far eastern made guitars... 

see now, Richard's rant has become catching

Bravo!

JayGee

At the risk of taking the thread round in circles...

We've had a number of people with actual experience (not least a couple of people who actually build guitars for a living) state quite categorically that you can't build and sell even a basic, stripped to the bone, minimalist guitar patterned on a Gibson Junior in Britain for £750. Meanwhile Gordon Smith seem to be actually doing that with a basic GS1 (Mahogany, single pickup, stoptail) listing at a fraction over £450 and, while they're undeniably basic and not the prettiest of things, on the basis of a few examples I've played over the years those "entry level" models play pretty well, judged against other guitars at the same sort of price point sound pretty good, and with a bit of TLC and nicer pickups they can be made bloody brilliant!

So what gives? 

Is it that GS have paid off the tooling/design/setup costs years ago and can keep ticking over on a shoestring building existing guitars on existing tooling, possibly using stockpiled materials until something expensive breaks? 

Or are the sort of issues Richard's raised endemic across the range these days and evidence that the business isn't viable because they can 't maintain acceptable quality even at lower price points?

timmysoft

I'd rather own an entry level Gordon Smith than a Schecter or LTD. I dont like all the binding and bling on guitars, to me flame tops and fancy inlays are for posers, the same guys that think that wearing dog tags will make them look infinitely cooler.

octatonic

JayGee said:

At the risk of taking the thread round in circles...

We've had a number of people with actual experience (not least a couple of people who actually build guitars for a living) state quite categorically that you can't build and sell even a basic, stripped to the bone, minimalist guitar patterned on a Gibson Junior in Britain for £750. Meanwhile Gordon Smith seem to be actually doing that with a basic GS1 (Mahogany, single pickup, stoptail) listing at a fraction over £450 and, while they're undeniably basic and not the prettiest of things, on the basis of a few examples I've played over the years those "entry level" models play pretty well, judged against other guitars at the same sort of price point sound pretty good, and with a bit of TLC and nicer pickups they can be made bloody brilliant!

So what gives? 

Is it that GS have paid off the tooling/design/setup costs years ago and can keep ticking over on a shoestring building existing guitars on existing tooling, possibly using stockpiled materials until something expensive breaks? 

Or are the sort of issues Richard's raised endemic across the range these days and evidence that the business isn't viable because they can 't maintain acceptable quality even at lower price points?

but they actually can't do it- the issues with GS guitars are related to how much time they put into them to make them right, I think.

Also because the costs associated with running a business in the UK are quite high.

You have wages, national insurance, rent, heating, other bills, shipping, tax, business rates- it all adds up.

It isn't just a matter of being able to keep ticking them over- because of the price point they basically have to do a bit of a shoddy job on them to get the volume of guitars out.

They are built to a price & imho they look and feel like it too.

ThePrettyDamned

I really like Rees guitars too. One day, I'll get one of his korina semi hollows.

timmysoft;102621" said:

I'd rather own an entry level Gordon Smith than a Schecter or LTD. I dont like all the binding and bling on guitars, to me flame tops and fancy inlays are for posers, the same guys that think that wearing dog tags will make them look infinitely cooler.

I'd rather own the one that plays well, has better hardware and sounds better for my style.

My Ltd was 600 quid new, but had tonepros locking hardware, locking tuners, an sh5 and jazz pickups, carved neck heel, jumbo frets and a 5 way superswitch. I don't like blingy binding (I love figured wood though) but the decision, for me, is based on an individual guitar's merits. It's why I don't really consider myself a 'fender', 'esp' etc person. I just try guitars out until I find the best I can afford.

I wish I'd known about Rees guitars sooner as I'd have tried his wares out. Now I have, and they're really, really good guitars. So you can get quality British build at a lower price, but some of it is imported.

I don't wear dog tags either.

timmysoft

I've seen a cheaper prototype that Ade at Vanquish Guitars was building that looks fucking incredible, i dont think it'll be Gordon Smith cheap, but it wont be as expensive as their current models (which are excellent and worth every penny, i might add)

Panama_Jack666

I know this isn't probably in every guitar makers business plan but could some of the UK makers in here work collaboratively to grow their businesses?

It could range from anywhere between sharing costs on importing wood/buying in bulk to using the same factories/machines within the UK to save on overheads and costs.

There would also be further scope to share knowledge between one another to improve the products that are being put out.

The collaboration could go further than just manufacturers of guitars but also bring in other British hardware manufacturers to reduce costs further. Pickups anyone? The guitar manufacturers could work closely with pick up designers (Oil city?! Is that the name of 'em?) to get the perfect set for their latest design. That way more pickups are being put out there and the brand is growing, in the mean time, the manufacturers are getting mates rates on their hardware...

Such an incentive would be exponential to the growth of two or more manufacturers surely? Support each other where possible... or is this already happening? Any reasons why it can't happen?

I know nothing about the guitar manufacturing industry - feel free to blow this idea out the water!

Bogwhoppit

One significant point, depreciation is your enemy.

 

Very few people have the money to splash out £1500 plus on a custom or low production guitar if there is the slightest doubt they will later sell it on.  You may convince yourself it will be a keeper, but just look at how many of us move gear on after a few years.

 

You only have to look in the classifieds to see the current debate regarding the Thorn guitars. Excellent as they are, they could be on the shelf for some time awaiting a buyer with that amount of cash. I had a custom guitar which I used since the 70s and wore the thing out. It cost me £2000 in 1979 and was worth £200 in 1980 and lost £20 a year thereafter. However, it was a tool of my trade and earned me 100 fold in income.

Today if I was going to part with £2-3k for a guitar it would be a Gibson or Fender, only because I stand a chance of getting my money back if I got bored with it. The market is limited for low production high quality guitars, production in the far east is too damn good and affordable. Having had 50s and 60s Gibson's and Fenders, my memories don't match those of the hype they receive. Many of them were unplayable, I had a 59 strat that played and sounded worse then a Westfield Strat copy.

octatonic

Panama_Jack666 said:

I know this isn't probably in every guitar makers business plan but could some of the UK makers in here work collaboratively to grow their businesses?

It could range from anywhere between sharing costs on importing wood/buying in bulk to using the same factories/machines within the UK to save on overheads and costs.

There would also be further scope to share knowledge between one another to improve the products that are being put out.

The collaboration could go further than just manufacturers of guitars but also bring in other British manufacturers to reduce costs further. Pickups anyone? The guitar manufacturers could work closely with pick up designers (Oil city?! Is that the name of 'em?) to get the perfect set for their latest design. That way more pickups are being put out there and the brand is growing, in the mean time, the manufacturers are getting mates rates on their hardware...

Surely such an incentive would be exponential to the growth of two or more manufacturers surely? Support each other where possible... or is this already happening? Any reasons why it can't happen?

I know nothing about the guitar manufacturing industry - feel free to blow this idea out the water!

I don't want to do that but often people are trying to do different things and have different processes in different locations.

I DID actually look at renting or buying a large workshop space and equipping it out for a bunch of luthiers that would share some equipment and machinery, paying a percentage of the rent and all working together as a loose co-operative.

In the end I decided it was a bit of a non-starter.

Some people are unreliable and it would be essentially a full time job to manage it, or someone would have to be employed to manage it.

Also, thinking it through- if someone in the co-operative breaks the bandsaw do they pay for it to be repaired?

What if they don't or can't- it breeds resentment.

What about thefts in the workshop?

I just don't think it will work on a large scale- certainly working in pairs can work but again trust is paramount and it has to be with the right person.

I prefer the model of someone such as 'Destroy All Guitars' in the US, where they act as a distribution point for particular brands of guitars and they help with the marketing of those guitars in return for a percentage.

Antique_Guitars

Yeah Destroy All Guitars is quite interesting, I believe DamianP sells a few through them.

Panama_Jack666

octatonic said:

Panama_Jack666 said:

I know this isn't probably in every guitar makers business plan but could some of the UK makers in here work collaboratively to grow their businesses?

It could range from anywhere between sharing costs on importing wood/buying in bulk to using the same factories/machines within the UK to save on overheads and costs.

There would also be further scope to share knowledge between one another to improve the products that are being put out.

The collaboration could go further than just manufacturers of guitars but also bring in other British manufacturers to reduce costs further. Pickups anyone? The guitar manufacturers could work closely with pick up designers (Oil city?! Is that the name of 'em?) to get the perfect set for their latest design. That way more pickups are being put out there and the brand is growing, in the mean time, the manufacturers are getting mates rates on their hardware...

Surely such an incentive would be exponential to the growth of two or more manufacturers surely? Support each other where possible... or is this already happening? Any reasons why it can't happen?

I know nothing about the guitar manufacturing industry - feel free to blow this idea out the water!

I don't want to do that but often people are trying to do different things and have different processes in different locations.

I DID actually look at renting or buying a large workshop space and equipping it out for a bunch of luthiers that would share some equipment and machinery, paying a percentage of the rent and all working together as a loose co-operative.

In the end I decided it was a bit of a non-starter.

Some people are unreliable and it would be essentially a full time job to manage it, or someone would have to be employed to manage it.

Also, thinking it through- if someone in the co-operative breaks the bandsaw do they pay for it to be repaired?

What if they don't or can't- it breeds resentment.

What about thefts in the workshop?

I just don't think it will work on a large scale- certainly working in pairs can work but again trust is paramount and it has to be with the right person.

I prefer the model of someone such as 'Destroy All Guitars' in the US, where they act as a distribution point for particular brands of guitars and they help with the marketing of those guitars in return for a percentage.

Yeah, I can appreciate where your coming from with that. It's by no means a flawless idea that would work off the shelf and I agree it would need a level of management and that'd probably be a full time job.

I still think it'd be a viable option though if the companies are small enough and both full time.

All of the things you mentioned are able to be worked through in my opinion. I'm a believer in collaborative working to reduce costs (if you hadn't guessed).

Rigid_Digits

BenSirAmos said:

timmysoft said:

 i bet there is a lot more to the story than has been said.

Me too

I bet there is too. Only a few months ago his site was singing the praises of GS guitars. I'd like to hear GS's side of the story. These allegations could be potentially highly damaging to them and their business. It would be a shame if it was needless.

frankus

Rigid_Digits said:

These allegations could be potentially highly damaging to them and their business. It would be a shame if it was needless.

I think there's a really simple Ockhams razor for this:

If Gordon Smith have some manner of customer service, a dignified response will be forthcoming here...

Dave_Mc

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Interesting isn't it ... I was told from one quarter, when I started OCP, that I could never hope to succeed in an overcrowded market ... that If I did get off the ground I'd be lucky to sell a hundred units in my first year ... that it was, at best, a 'break even' hobby. In my first year I more than tripled those sales predictions, and am expanding at a rate that has shocked even me. I am now earning a full time living ... and have just taken on Oil cities first (admittedly part time) member of staff.

We have a massive pool of young people in this country ... who I have actually found ... in general... to be enthusiastic and ready to work ... yet get fobbed off from the pathetic excuse for an organisation that is Jobcentre Plus and get made to feel outcasts from the working world. A job, training, and a 'chance' is all most of them want.

I am probably about as pissed off as anyone can be by the sea of excuses that come in whenever someone suggests we try and take on the foreign competitors head on and actually create some proper growth in this country. There are cheap parts of the UK to move production to ... there are schemes to help train and employ a workforce ... and there is a good European market to trade with  .... I sell almost as many pickups to the rest of the EU as I do to the UK .... so why wouldn't that work with guitars?
Far too many people sit on their arses and bleat about not being competitive in this country without actually trying to do anything about it.

Rant over

Damien P already commented on this (and I'll probably not end up saying anything he hasn't), but I might as well anyway ) I'm also well aware I'm not saying anything you don't already know, obviously you know way more about pickups than I do. )

It's great you're doing well- and I hope you continue to do well. You seem to be one of the good guys. If I ever get my finger out and get my soldering technique up to scratch, I'll be buying from you and guys like you.

I would say (and Damien P touched on this) however that your specific product might not necessarily be indicative of other industries (or even the wider guitar industry, as Damien P said).

The industry standard pickups (I'm talking about the big guys here- Duncan, Dimarzio, EMG, even Gibson and Fender) aren't made where labour costs are cheap, they're made in the USA. Considering how expensive most USA stuff is in Europe, you can compete with them on price- in fact your prices undercut most of their models. There are a few cheaper Far-Eastern manufacturers, and some players do buy them and rate them highly, but by and large most players stick to the big brands (or more "boutique" handwound options), so you're not really competing on price in the way that, say, a clothing manufacturer would be against far east sweatshops.

It's also a product which, while it requires a lot of skill to make, can be made using homemade equipment in any normal room (correct me if I'm wrong here, I may well be). Again, compare that to trying to make, say, computers in the west, where you need massive manufacturing facilities and technology. The start-up costs are pretty low in other words.

There's also a feeling within guitar playing that handmade stuff is better (rightly or wrongly)- again, that gives you a bit of an advantage versus the cheaper Far Eastern makes, too (and even the machinewound USA stuff). Of course, some people will pay more for handmade clothes etc. too, but it's arguably more of a niche, plus more imporantly there's a far bigger difference in price too. A handmade suit will make your eyes water whereas, as I said above, you're actually undercutting the factory-made pickups from the USA, and are not that much dearer than even the factory-made stuff from the Far East.

It's also a product which requires a lot of skill and knowledge to make- again, competing on skills/knowledge is something which the west can still do (sort of).

Pickups also tend to be the thing that lots of guitarists upgrade (and don't mind spending a lot of money on)- you'll hear lots of guitarists thinking about a pickup upgrade before they upgrade their amp etc. That's not to say pickups don't make a difference, because they make a massive difference (especially when the rest of your kit is good), but you've had the good sense to make a product which there's a lot of demand for.

None of this is meant to belittle the achievements you've made, I'm not meaning to imply that what you've done is easy or anything like that (and I love stories where the little guy proved the prevailing knowledge wrong ), I'm just saying that the industry you're in might be one of the lucky few where developed countries actually can compete on a halfway level playing field. EDIT: I would also say that I'd agree that the economy would need to be rebalanced, at least a bit, so I'm not necessarily arguing with that point, either. I'm just saying some of the excuses might have (at least some) merit. That's all.

monofin

A bit late to the party but I do wonder about Richard's motivation. It's one thing announcing that he's no longer selling GS guitars but there's a lot of potentially damaging bad mouthing in that announcement. I too would like to hear GS's side of the story and wonder what their solicitor makes of the announcement.

blueskunk

The only good thing about this we have a new finish on guitars, the dogs pubes finish which i beleive prs are gutted they didnt think of first.

ThePrettyDamned

Guitarists are suckers for hype and advertisement. Eg, bare knuckles? Great pickups, but the cost if for advertising. Probably. Imo maybe don't sue me

Bogwhoppit

blueskunk said:

The only good thing about this we have a new finish on guitars, the dogs pubes finish which i beleive prs are gutted they didnt think of first.

Would that be 'Pubic Stock' ?

blueskunk

Bogwhoppit;103000" said:

blueskunk said:

Would that be 'Pubic Stock' ?

Nice