Gordon Smith and Richard's Guitars

ddlooping

streethawk said:

Probably less than I would pay if it were pictured in the hands of a guitarist I liked, or at least presented on a guitar stand on some decking.  :P

Marketing trumps reason. 

Good points.
I'm not actually selling it though. :P

IanSavage

ddlooping said:

Assuming this guitar felt and sounded right to you, how much would you be willing to pay for it?
(if you like it that is)

http://www.diazguitars.co.uk/stuff/T1.jpg

From a glance, could be anything from a few hundred quid to a grand to my eyes - seems to be a pretty no-frills bolt-on but it's got a nice shape to it and if those are actual FilterTrons (or similar decent-spec Gretsch-type) I'd suspect asking price would be around the £7-800 mark.

Jez6345789

Hi

I looked a bit further into the Blackstar funding yes they got 3.5 million on that deal but only got 196k originally from the VC who funded development and initial launch. Sure there was money from directors and other investors but it not massive start up cost really when you consider they had two odd years of R&D. I doubt you would need that long to get a new guitar range out the door if you had moderate ambition.

I know nothing about the business of GS just played the odd guitar over the years, for the years they have been around you would of expected a bit more of a progressive approach in view of the changes over the years but they obviously are happily being exactly what they are which is fine.

I have only met Martyn Booth once at a guitar show many years ago, and he was a really nice guy but his tales of woe seem to have run through his entire making career. He makes really nice guitars and I never hear anybody say anything bad about them. But I get the distinct impression if you offered to bank roll him in a new UK guitar business you would still be discussing the headstock angle 6 months in. I only say that respectfully as the role of master craftsman and entrepreneur are not alway closely linked. 

I did not notice Jayden did a 900 quid series two so the argument becomes almost mute if you were to gear up you could probably hit the magic 699.00. 

regards Jez

octatonic

Jez6345789 said:

Hi

I looked a bit further into the Blackstar funding yes they got 3.5 million on that deal but only got 196k originally from the VC who funded development and initial launch. Sure there was money from directors and other investors but it not massive start up cost really when you consider they had two odd years of R&D. I doubt you would need that long to get a new guitar range out the door if you had moderate ambition.

I know nothing about the business of GS just played the odd guitar over the years, for the years they have been around you would of expected a bit more of a progressive approach in view of the changes over the years but they obviously are happily being exactly what they are which is fine.

I have only met Martyn Booth once at a guitar show many years ago, and he was a really nice guy but his tales of woe seem to have run through his entire making career. He makes really nice guitars and I never hear anybody say anything bad about them. But I get the distinct impression if you offered to bank roll him in a new UK guitar business you would still be discussing the headstock angle 6 months in. I only say that respectfully as the role of master craftsman and entrepreneur are not alway closely linked. 

I did not notice Jayden did a 900 quid series two so the argument becomes almost mute if you were to gear up you could probably hit the magic 699.00. 

regards Jez

Moot.

ddlooping

IanSavage said:

ddlooping said:

Assuming this guitar felt and sounded right to you, how much would you be willing to pay for it?
(if you like it that is)

http://www.diazguitars.co.uk/stuff/T1.jpg

From a glance, could be anything from a few hundred quid to a grand to my eyes - seems to be a pretty no-frills bolt-on but it's got a nice shape to it and if those are actual FilterTrons (or similar decent-spec Gretsch-type) I'd suspect asking price would be around the £7-800 mark.

Thanks, Ian.

What if I then told you it was made and assembled in the UK, using a mix of British and USA hardware?

Jez6345789

Long day Moot it is :-)

octatonic

Jez6345789 said:

Long day Moot it is :-)

TTony

ddlooping said:

Assuming this guitar felt and sounded right to you, how much would you be willing to pay for it?
(if you like it that is)

http://www.diazguitars.co.uk/stuff/T1.jpg

I'd want to see *some* built first.

But cross that bridge, and you know you'd sell some.  I can't remember anyone who's tried that demonstrator (albeit wrongly sized) who didn't like it.

ThePrettyDamned

Sad though it is, you'd need an artist endorsement.

It's cruel to say, but the best guitar in the world will be laughed out the door until someone successful says it's okay to like it. And when that person likes it, more people do, then because they like it, more people do...

Which is a shame, I love the looks of that. It's got a gretsch look (even if you changed the pickups) but is easily different enough to justify it's own existence.

Jaden

being a sourcing type business such as blackstar or ibanez etc etc is vastly different to manufacturing.
I have a friend in a different (less creative) manufacturing MI business....  he cant see why I dont scale up like crazy, after all, I have a CNC with another 1 or 2 on the way, I have had 2 laser machines and I buy all the best tools for every job..

lets just say I could make 400 guitars every year instead of 200, who will buy the extra 200 I made ?
above weve seen that Martyn Booth is struggling, this is true of every maker...

you have made a lot of good points about running a business but really, most luthiers are crap businessmen and money isnt their driving ambition, more often its passing the test of handing over an instrument to a customer and seeing them lift.

I would consider myself, not a bad businessman but money still isnt my driving force, neither is quantity.
personally im more driven purely by the creative process coupled with the enjoyable game of continuous improvement.

I have had many opportunities to manufacture offshore copies of my guitars and could still pull the trigger on that one anytime, but why ? for the same reason, why would I make more guitars for less money, so I could be more busy, again. Why?

so, money for most makers is nothing more than an inconvenient but still considerable factor.
make every guitar like it will be judged as your last.

as far as this relates to the OP, well..... Gordon Smith's business model is obviously not set around these values.  Enough said.

WezV

ThePrettyDamned said:

Sad though it is, you'd need an artist endorsement.

It's cruel to say, but the best guitar in the world will be laughed out the door until someone successful says it's okay to like it. And when that person likes it, more people do, then because they like it, more people do...

Which is a shame, I love the looks of that. It's got a gretsch look (even if you changed the pickups) but is easily different enough to justify it's own existence.

That works another way too.   I have had local "boys done good" bands that own my guitars but are not allowed to play them live or state in any magazine articles that they recorded whole albums with them.  Part of their record deal included "endorsements".   I can't offer them trade prices on all gear and all the other stuff that  comes with a big name endorsement.

luckily i don't have to worry.  I build what i want, when i want for who i want.... would be nice if i could make a decent living from guitars, but I know the better option for my family is the office job and stable income... with a nice escape when i need it

ThePrettyDamned

WezV;109601" said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

Sad though it is, you'd need an artist endorsement.



It's cruel to say, but the best guitar in the world will be laughed out the door until someone successful says it's okay to like it. And when that person likes it, more people do, then because they like it, more people do...



Which is a shame, I love the looks of that. It's got a gretsch look (even if you changed the pickups) but is easily different enough to justify it's own existence.





That works another way too.   I have had local "boys done good" bands that own my guitars but are not allowed to play them live or state in any magazine articles that they recorded whole albums with them.  Part of their record deal included "endorsements".   I can't offer them trade prices on all gear and all the other stuff that  comes with a big name endorsement.

luckily i don't have to worry.  I build what i want, when i want for who i want.... would be nice if i could make a decent living from guitars, but I know the better option for my family is the office job and stable income... with a nice escape when i need it

Oh man, that's a really sad picture you paint.

But to be honest, if I were a guitar builder (lol) I'd do the same. Keep it hobby-like. Same for pedals - I don't think booteek pedals are a realistic, long term business plan, whereas spending a couple of hours a few times a week as a hobby building them to make just a bit of pocket money...

WezV

Its not a sad picture at all.  I love my main job, i get paid well for it along with nice benefits  (better than average holidays, good pay, free health care, free beer, flexi time etc....)

I also love building guitars and am glad i can still find time for it with the new career path

I am not trying to create a sustainable business plan from guitars because that would be a hard slog and i don't need to take that path.  I am having fun making guitars, have built more than many 'new' uk luthiers and am able to build what i want when i want. I think gives people a infinitely more special end result than anyone working to a price point but i know it doesn't give them a more valuable guitar in monetary terms..  the one year i did consider it as a potential future i ended up building a lot of telecasters, i love them all, but i don't want to make telecasters for a living

IanSavage

ddlooping said:

IanSavage said:

From a glance, could be anything from a few hundred quid to a grand to my eyes - seems to be a pretty no-frills bolt-on but it's got a nice shape to it and if those are actual FilterTrons (or similar decent-spec Gretsch-type) I'd suspect asking price would be around the £7-800 mark.

Thanks, Ian.

What if I then told you it was made and assembled in the UK, using a mix of British and USA hardware?

Hmmm...well, then I KNOW that it wouldn't be unreasonable to have an asking price of knocking on for four figures, and I do really like the look of it - personally I'd struggle to justify spending that much on any guitar with limited resale value though, which is another massive stumbling block for new brands, I guess. 

IanSavage

Also, I've just had a play with your website - I now REALLY want one of those with a bridge 'bucker and a neck P90, in black with 4 lower-bout control/switch holes (master volume&tone, 3-way switch, separate neck pup control)...just so you know, you can go through all of the options except for the last one on your 'site but it doesn't give you a quote or anything, is it supposed to? 

ThePrettyDamned

WezV;109656" said:

Its not a sad picture at all.  I love my main job, i get paid well for it along with nice benefits  (better than average holidays, good pay, free health care, free beer, flexi time etc....)

I also love building guitars and am glad i can still find time for it with the new career path

I am not trying to create a sustainable business plan from guitars because that would be a hard slog and i don't need to take that path.  I am having fun making guitars, have built more than many 'new' uk luthiers and am able to build what i want when i want. I think gives people a infinitely more special end result than anyone working to a price point but i know it doesn't give them a more valuable guitar in monetary terms..  the one year i did consider it as a potential future i ended up building a lot of telecasters, i love them all, but i don't want to make telecasters for a living

I take it back!

And I agree about not building to a price point. Also, was it you that converted a headless into a v recently? That sort of thing probably wouldn't go to a 'normal' company.

jpfamps

An interesting thread. Some of my own observations.

1) For the venture to work the pricing needs to be good for all parties concerned: customers, dealers and the manufacturer. Dealers are finding it harder to make a decent margin on the "usual suspects", so if you can offer dealers a good margin, then they would be inclined to promote your product. Blackstar for example discourage discounting of their amps (although this is actually illegal), and thus preserving dealer margins.

2) It must be viable to produce guitars in the UK at a commercially viable price; after all they manage this in the USA, and Japan (the most expensive place in the World to manufacture).

Economy of scale and mechanization massively brings down costs (how much would it cost you to build a car?). eg chatting to a friend of mine who makes guitars if he buys the ash for a tele body from a "luthier" supply it works out about £45 a body; however buying the same wood directly from the UK importer would bring this down to around £12. He would have to buy £1,000 worth to get this price, which is not practical for a smaller builder.

We would you buy truss rods? You can make them for a fraction of the cost. A CNC machine can cut a Tele-style body blank in 7-8 minutes. 

Essentially with hand-built goods you are (often) paying more for the inefficiency of production (and I'm speaking as someone who sells hand-built amps). There are advantages to hand-built guitars/ amps, but cost isn't one of them.

3) The big problem as alluded to by several posters would be to produce something that was seen as desirable. Ideally you would manage to come up with a great looking design that isn't a copy of the usual suspects, but was still conventional enough to appeal to enough players so that you can sell enough to stay in business. Whilst I'm sure this is not beyond the wit of man, few manufacturers have managed this.

ddlooping

IanSavage said:

Also, I've just had a play with your website - I now REALLY want one of those with a bridge 'bucker and a neck P90, in black with 4 lower-bout control/switch holes (master volume&tone, 3-way switch, separate neck pup control)...just so you know, you can go through all of the options except for the last one on your 'site but it doesn't give you a quote or anything, is it supposed to? 

Glad to hear it.

That was the goal when I started making the site 3 (4?) years ago.
I stopped developing it after a few weeks though, as the project was not moving forward.
Now, if the project ever takes off, there will be much less options and the site will change quite drastically.  

ToneControl

To my surprise (since, like for electric guitars, the UK has never had a big reputation for pickups), BKP seem to have cracked the world market

Is there anything from their story that can be applied to luthiers?

dindude

Essentially with hand-built goods you are (often) paying more for the inefficiency of production (and I'm speaking as someone who sells hand-built amps).

This is a very good point.

On the other side the issue is also that if you were to get to a point of decent volume of manufacturer with partial automation, slick finishing, and sourcing hardware (let's say) from outside the UK, is the end product really going to be any better than something built in the Far East for far less, other than the ability to say "made in the UK".

(And that's coming from someone who avoids Chinese manufactured guitars generally).

Patrick Eggle came closest to the ideal in the early 90's I think, properly presented production instruments (rather than the guitar equivalent of home brew beer) with providence, but at a reasonable price for a pro instrument. And that didn't work out for long for what ever reason.