Just recovered from reading about an expensive pedal

Dave_Mc

FWIW I don't think TGP is anything to do with "being American". I don't like the casual anti-americanism that some people on some more british-orientated forums have (and a lot of the supposed complaints some English people have about foreigners I see in them too... I suppose that's always the way ) ). I like the more American-orientated forums I'm a member of just as much as this one- the only thing that annoys me about them is seeing the prices they pay for things and not getting good British (or even European)-based deals flagged up so much. )

Heartfeltdawn

darcym said:

sorry the IE bug happened in the last post so it only put the quote. what I was trying to say was that why does it matter / change it's desire for people if it's based on a tubescreamer with bits added/taken out ? it's a pedal it sounds nothing like a tubescreamer at all so why does it matter that it's based on a tubescreamer ? someone has taken a circuit made is sounds different and is selling it, I don't see why this sort of thing gets mocked for being "based" on something else, it's a different circuit, it sounds different to the original (in this case VERY different) it's got a stupid price tag, if you can afford it and want that sound buy it, if you don't want that sound or can't afford it at this time, don't buy it.

As ever, your defence of expensive pedals with the merest of changes never fails to amuse me. Keep it up!

[Deleted User]

pretty sad state of affairs to be honest with you.

I had high hopes for the forum after watching it for months I felt confident it would take the best of the MR forum and filter the worst naturally, but it's sad for me to see that it's basically just the exact opposite of the TGP in terms of view, but just as pushing in the views.

The TGP is being battered for pushing pedals down peoples throat as the next big thing and justifying over priced stuff, yes, that needs to be kept in check, however this forum is turning into the anti-view where every single pedal posted above £60 is pulled apart the company turned into mass villains out to trick you and con you, every pedal is "guessed" not factually but guessed over based on peoples perception of the circuit and what maybe in there and a £500 pedal is reduced to £8 of components and called out for being a con and a "clone" - FACT !

Every pedal is a clone and based on something, very few original circuits are made, circuits are modified and improved on, which makes them unique, add a component, change a value it's a "new" circuit, yes it's based on something else, but someone has done the thought/trial and error to come up with this enhancement and put a price on their work/effort. If you feel the work is not worth that price, it's fair to critique it, if you feel the pedal is an acceptable price for you, that is also acceptable, but this whole attitude of unless every pedal make puts this warning on their page "Based on pedal X that I have modified" they are villains.

If you read, I'm not defending the pedals, I find a lot of them overpriced, so I don't buy them, however some of them which have been expensive I fully acknowledge are overpriced, but with no alternative as good, I've bought them, and been pleased with my purchase, or in one case a bit let down, but it's turning into just as exteme but opposite view of the TGP where the TGP posts "THIS PEDAL IS THE AMAZING MAGIC PEDAL!!!!" and anyone who disagrees is shot down and killed, this forum (the FX one in particular) is turning into "IT'S A CLONE OF SOMETHING, I DON'T KNOW WHAT SO I'LL FIND IT IF IT KILLS ME AND POST HOW STUPID YOU ARE AND HOW MUCH OF A CON IT IS !!!!" and if you disagree your just as mocked (but not banned I grant you) as the TGP.

Pretty much done with this now, really disappointed.

ThePrettyDamned

@Darcym, you have to admit, $600 for a badly finished overdrive pedal with poor tolexing and labels is pretty insane.  

Just as an edit, I'm happy to pay a fair amount for a pedal, but typically, OD circuits don't seem to have much R+D going on and can't really justify a crazy price tag.  I've said it so many times, why can't these guys to an envelope filter based on the QTron but with a gain control and tone more suited to high output humbucking pickups?  If they did, I'd pay, but I suspect that for a lot of people, it's far too much effort to make a good sounding envelope filter because it's a difficult pedal to make.  As it is, the QTron is one of my favourite pedals of all time, but it simply sounds best with low output humbuckers and low output single coils because it responds so much better to them.

The guy who's boutique built a Boss HM-2 was flamed because he chose a bad circuit (even though it's 'the' death metal tone).  I was of the opinion that building a discontinued circuit with mods to improve the gain range was a good idea, and it's more expensive than his other drives because it has a massive parts count (and thus labour cost to go with it).  You have to value your time.

Not the pedal for me, granted, but if you want the Swedish DM sound, you need a Boss HM2 which doesn't exist anymore.  It's quite neat you can now buy one, and while it's pricey, it is THE way to get that sound.  And while it's expensive, it's not unjustifiably so.

[Deleted User]

I fully agree it's a terrible price and I'm not paying it - however I'm not on a mission to tear it to bits, call the company con men out to steal from you based on guesses at the spec, then when somone DOES clone it and say "this is a clone at %50 of the price" they are con men too.

This attitude of anything above $X price is a con and must be burnt in flames along with anyone who doesn't feel the need to burn them is just junk and just as bad as the TGP.

ThePrettyDamned

darcym said:

I fully agree it's a terrible price and I'm not paying it - however I'm not on a mission to tear it to bits, call the company con men out to steal from you based on guesses at the spec, then when somone DOES clone it and say "this is a clone at %50 of the price" they are con men too.

This attitude of anything above $X price is a con and must be burnt in flames along with anyone who doesn't feel the need to burn them is just junk and just as bad as the TGP.

Totally agree about cloning it and halving the price is... Well, it's pretty dodgy! I might even go as far as to say I'd rather pay the $600 for the original on the basis that the other guy is still overcharging, but has put zero input into designing it.  

A lot of people don't like Lovepedal because they use the Electra Distortion circuit a lot.  I don't really mind it - some of the terms they use is a bit dodgy (gain boost on the Les Lius is not actually a second channel or anything).  However, it sounds great and they're not THAT expensive for a high quality pedal from a reputable brand.  And it's testament to how versatile the electra distortion/tubescreamer etc actually is.  

The Les Lius is, hands down, one of the best OD pedals I've heard.  And not horrendously overpriced if you have the money, to be honest.  It's a neat box that can easily become quite central to your sound.

[Deleted User]

why is it dodgy, half this thread is "IT'S A CLONE AND THEY ARE NOT TELLING YOU!!!" - someone does say "THIS IS A CLONE" and they are just as evil.

This whole attitude is just some sort of witch hunt.

Develop a modified circuit and give it a name - market it - you're evil for not making it clear on your website it's a modified circuit.
clone it and half the price and make it %101 clear it's a clone - you're evil

people can't win.

But that is me out now.

amplifiednation

No...can't win in the states...can't win in Europe. It's just a pedal....I'm not producing them in China...I made a handful of them...at $600 each I'm sure the distribution chain is doing ok, no one is homeless because of a few clones

ThePrettyDamned

That's true enough.  And I suppose, assuming the original is just a tweaked circuit (which I think has been confirmed) then you've just kinda released a clone of a near clone... 

You could be a worse person It's just a big grey area, it'll always have debate, which is just fine

juansolo

You know, you're right. Ignorance is bliss and indeed people are of course free to spend as much as they like on what they like.

I've walked away from the threads on TGP because I value my sanity, and I shall walk away from this one. This obviously doesn't change my opinion of the situation and those involved.

Dave_Mc

Nice to see the TGP strawman debating tactic is alive and well, darcym.

Also, fwiw, making an educated guess based on what's happened previously isn't "just a guess". And a lot of the people who "just guessed" were right last time.

I just like to know what I'm buying. Apparently that's not allowed (see, straw man arguments are annoying!).

Heartfeltdawn

darcym said:

Pretty much done with this now, really disappointed.

I've cloned your disappointment, put it in a hand-painted box, and now it's worth four times what you would have gotten for it originally. I'm going to go and sell it on the Dumble Toneseekers forum at wwwdullblueswithexpensivepedals.com. 

frankus

Remember to mention that this disappointment comes from a discerning collector of booteek pedalz and strawman argumentz

allicio

What's strawman? Not heard that term!

randomhandclaps

allicio said:

What's strawman? Not heard that term!

It's just another Tubescreamer clone.

guitarfishbay

allicio said:

What's strawman? Not heard that term!

It is a debating tactic - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

frankus

Also anyone wanting a $600 I've got a pedal in the tradition of the Tubescreamer where I've changed the resistance in a few parts of the pedal, I'm not one of these secretive boutique pedal makers - I'm quite open about the changes I've made... I've moved the level potentiometer to the left, I've moved the gain potentiometer to the right and the tone potentiometer to the right also but not as much... this yields a totally different circuit to the normal tubescreamer.

Some people go for different op amps, some for different cap values or carbon comp resistors or 1D cables... and until I've figured out how to peddle that kind of snake-oil I'm dubious of it's effectiveness... but absolutely sure you'll love this mod.

I'll mod your existing pedal and for an extra $200 locktite the pots at the correct position and fit internal trimpots for you to fine tune.. all pedals get a sticker to increase the resale value on ebay when a new thread starts.

If you're not happy with the price of this mod, wait for someone to sell you a book of this and many more mods or for the freestompbox people to take the piss

Please note this change gives a warmer more Dumblish-like* sound than is available from an unmodded tubescreamer... there were examples of Tubescreamers leaving the factory with this setup but component tolerances and different QA means this isn't guaranteed.



* The term Dumblish-like describes the sonic ability of the pedal to evoke a medley of emotions: gullibility, shame and financial loss in the listener, in his bedroom, on his own... Some people say it's to do with crystal lettuces... All I know is for $600 you get it... or sell it akwardly saying its the best, in order to chase the next reason to play the same bent note 40-50 times...

[Deleted User]

Dave_Mc said:

Nice to see the TGP strawman debating tactic is alive and well, darcym.

Also, fwiw, making an educated guess based on what's happened previously isn't "just a guess". And a lot of the people who "just guessed" were right last time.

I just like to know what I'm buying. Apparently that's not allowed (see, straw man arguments are annoying!).

Dave,

I don't know what strawman argument you're talking about.

I'm fully agreeing with you the price is out of proportion, and fully accept there are two viewpoints to if a modified circuit should be classed as a new circuit or clearly explained as a modified circuity, I can see why someone with more electrical engineering experience would class a modified circuit as a "mod" rather than a new circuit to someone who just hears it sounding different and believe it's a new - from scratch circuit.

the points I'm trying to put across are that

just because something is over priced - doesn't make it evil or a con, it just means it's overpriced
marketing something a new circuit, thats the subjective part as for a me a modification that makes the circuit different and thus you could word it as a "new circuit" to someone with my level of electrical engineering and be correct, but I also understand why the more experienced electrical engineer would take a more agressive stance that there is nothing new, but at the same time, it's just effective marketing, business do it all the time with every product they don't call the Audi A6 "a mod of the VW passat" they call it "the new Audi A6" because it's a new car, even though it's based on the Passat (or which every way around it is).
a bit more balanced discussion on this other than "it's a con, it's a scam, it's all evil !!! and you're an idiot for believing it" seems better than the attempt to one up the other view point

the part I'm disappointed by - which you seem to think is me defending an overpriced pedal is the venom against it.

TGP is blasted for blindly over hyping and justifying over priced pedals, you must see that the agression with which you are pushing the negative view is pretty much identical to TGP - just the opposing view.
You think it's an overpriced rip off/clone - therefore - FACT, discussion done, anyone who can see a difference view point is wrong and should have jibes thrown at him, this is exactly the same as what TGP is doing with the positive review of the pedal.

nothing strawman in there, just trying to be a bit more objective than "it's a hidden clone burn the maker alive and eat his family, and anyone who thinks otherwise, is an idiot"

ThePrettyDamned

I'm going to take absolute middle ground - it's a rip off price (it doesn't even look well finished, which it should be for that money - see zvex and moollon).

It might sound amazing though, if you like that sound. And, if I'm being honest, having amplified nation here, it sounds like he is cloning more to make his money back and give out a few affordable offerings briefly (he's done a handful) rather than rip off and undercut for masses of profit from a hyped circuit. So he's just funding his curiosity, and that's not so bad really. It's still not a cheap pedal, but at least it'll probably be well made and it does look better finished than the original!

I do still wish there was more push for more unique sounds from boutique (which should mean, ultimately, small scale and bespoke). Still would love a modded qtron style envelope filter that works with all types of pickups well, and I would probably pay a fair amount for it - certainly north of £120 for home use, and I'd easily consider more if it was central to recording and live use. I love the qtron! It just loses all dynamics in the lower input gain range, which you need for high output humbucker pickups. So if they fixed that, perhaps gave it two modes of operation, it would be one of the most important pedals in my arsenal.

Though I only have 3 - route 66, tuner and qtron. The qtron, by far, gets the most use because it makes me play funk better.

Just to illustrate some pedal genius, ehx have cloned the klon. But I think (edit: have heard) it has different transistors to keep costs down - yet still sounds the same, so presumably they've had to mod the circuit further to make the pedal sound the same despite not having these expensive components. That's pretty smart, and it also means there is still a market for the more expensive ones, because they will have the 'mojo' parts, and yes, they might sounds marginally different.

I do totally knee jerk react to massively hyped stuff. I often wonder why the dano pedals didn't get hype before the circuits were revealed - they were always 'good for the money'.

crunchman

Boutique makers may well use more expensive parts which will contribute to making it more expensive.  Here are 3 different 0.22uF caps from the same supplier:

http://www.musikding.de/Ceramic-Disc-022-uF
http://www.musikding.de/MKP2-022uF-250V_1
http://www.musikding.de/MKP2-022uF-250V_1

The ceramic is priced at €0.06, there is a film one at €0.45 and an orange drop at €2.25.

Your bog standard cheapo pedal will likely use the ceramic.  Most higher quality/boutique offerings would use a film one, and some snake oil salesman will say that Orange Drops have "Mojo" and use them.  You might even find one who uses paper-in-oil! 

You get similar on resistors.  A bog standard 10k is 6 Euro cents, a carbon comp version is 25 cents.

You might also find a boutique manufacturer going for unobtainium Germanium components, or metal film caps at values where a cheapo would use an electrolytic.

Depending on the complexity of the circuit and the exact parts used, a boutique maker could be spending £20 more on the parts.  By the time you add a middle man, import duties etc that £20 would translate to £50 on the final price.

Having said all that, $600 for a pedal is ridiculous.