Just recovered from reading about an expensive pedal

frankus

with the caps - that's a matter of both max voltage and also the tolerance of the materials (metal film or ceramic) - if the maker measures them there won't be a difference.

carbon comp resistors are supposed to have mojo - but the concensus is only for higher voltages.

Germanium diodes and Transistors are noticeably different to sillicon counterparts... and OC44s and the like are expensive, NOS and rare... you'll certainly see Analogman or Fulltone referencing their purchase of a bulk order of them (they'll not buy one-offs) - equally these guys have techniques to match the transistors...

I don't have issues with market forces pushing the price of pedals up - far from it - I buy and sell pedals using this market-force to trade up... so I can't begrudge TGP talking up a storm on some pedal, I'll probably link to it on ebay

I don't have an issue with makers paying themselves a healthy rate to make the pedals - or their staff.

randomhandclaps

frankus said:

Germanium diodes and Transistors are noticeably different to sillicon counterparts... and OC44s and the like are expensive, NOS and rare... you'll certainly see Analogman or Fulltone referencing their purchase of a bulk order of them (they'll not buy one-offs) - equally these guys have techniques to match the transistors...

Then you have the bizarre phenomenon that whatever the above builders have purchased are the only transistors that will make a good fuzz face.  In fact Analogman won't use any widely available transistor.  :-?   Our local priest is American and he use to do a special uber-mass every Wednesday night just for the transistors Analogman bought in to him.  He doesn't always like to talk about it by I read rumours on the internet that each one involved the sacrifice of a Sumatran tiger cub.

juansolo

ThePrettyDamned said:

Just to illustrate some pedal genius, ehx have cloned the klon. But I think (edit: have heard) it has different transistors to keep costs down - yet still sounds the same, so presumably they've had to mod the circuit further to make the pedal sound the same despite not having these expensive components. That's pretty smart, and it also means there is still a market for the more expensive ones, because they will have the 'mojo' parts, and yes, they might sounds marginally different. 

It's using op amps which are cheap as chips to be fair. But likely he's refined the circuit a bit (like Madbean did with the Kingslayer) and is using a quad opamp instead of two duals. Likely it might also run more of the circuit at 18v for increased headroom. Finally I'd also suspect he's not using germ diodes. There are silicons (BAT41) that clip in a similar manner which would make more sense on a production pedal.

That's all just speculation mind you until someone reverses it.

monquixote

I was reading the other day the difference between the Deluxe Memory Man and the Deluxe Memory Boy was one Panasonic NOS chip that's really expensive and hard to get hold of meaning the pedal is double the cost and not generally available. 

Might be marketing bollocks, but was interesting. 

People go too far with some of the "It's just a TS clone" stuff as things like the Boiling Point are apparently just a TS clone with a few bits changed, but sound totally different. 

juansolo

Not bollocks.

The original DMM uses a pair of Panasonic MN3005 BBDs. These have been OOP for some time and are now nigh on impossible to get hold of. The only ones that tend to pop up are pulls from old karaoke machines in China. So you can take your chances there. But there are a LOT of fakes out there (most of them now) that are re-printed MN3008s. They work the same but have half the delay time...

Modern BBD delays tend to use either the Coolaudio V3205 which has the same delay time, but is a bit noisy. Also limited to 9v where as the MN3005 can run at 15v for increased headroom. The other out there is the BL3208 which has half the delay time (so you need double the ICs), but is less noisy and IIRC can run at 12v. They are the only two BBDs still in production to my knowledge.

If they're using something else it's likely being done digitally.

monquixote said:

I was reading the other day the difference between the Deluxe Memory Man and the Deluxe Memory Boy was one Panasonic NOS chip that's really expensive and hard to get hold of meaning the pedal is double the cost and not generally available. 

Might be marketing bollocks, but was interesting. 

People go too far with some of the "It's just a TS clone" stuff as things like the Boiling Point are apparently just a TS clone with a few bits changed, but sound totally different. 

stickyfiddle

darcym said:

why is it dodgy, half this thread is "IT'S A CLONE AND THEY ARE NOT TELLING YOU!!!" - someone does say "THIS IS A CLONE" and they are just as evil.

This whole attitude is just some sort of witch hunt.

Develop a modified circuit and give it a name - market it - you're evil for not making it clear on your website it's a modified circuit.
clone it and half the price and make it %101 clear it's a clone - you're evil

people can't win.

But that is me out now.

It's not that. It's when a company produces a pedal like the Dumbloid or Jan Ray thingy claiming it's the result of endless R&D and many man-hours to come up with something amazing and new, when what they've done is put a normally-£100 Timmy or TS in a shiny box. I'm not saying anyone shouldn't buy one, but if a company called Pursche started selling something that cost the same as a 911 and looked like a 911, with the internals of a Ford Focus, I'd really want to know all of that information before buying one. I still wouldn't begrudge others for spending their own money on it if they wanted to. I can't see how this is different.

frankus

randomhandclaps said:

frankus said:

Germanium diodes and Transistors are noticeably different to sillicon counterparts... and OC44s and the like are expensive, NOS and rare... you'll certainly see Analogman or Fulltone referencing their purchase of a bulk order of them (they'll not buy one-offs) - equally these guys have techniques to match the transistors...

Then you have the bizarre phenomenon that whatever the above builders have purchased are the only transistors that will make a good fuzz face.  In fact Analogman won't use any widely available transistor.  :-?   Our local priest is American and he use to do a special uber-mass every Wednesday night just for the transistors Analogman bought in to him.  He doesn't always like to talk about it by I read rumours on the internet that each one involved the sacrifice of a Sumatran tiger cub.

If you get a socketed fuzz face pcb - which can be made for a few quid, then swap in and out BC109s, BC108s, NKT275s, AC128s, AC127s (NPN from the original circuit - so you'll need a switch to get the circuit that way) - you'll hear a difference - germanium are IMO softer and you might find you get the fuzz to evolve from unity, to boost, to drive, to fuzz all from the volume control on the guitar - whereas silicon transistors are more gainy, it might go from boost to fuzz.. YMMV

I love having the fuzz on all the time then opening up the volume on the guitar to get it working (most of my guitars have linear pots on the volume for this reason)... so for me it's a no brainer, I use germanium transistors - it's a no-brainer, if Sumatran tigers have to die for that, I'm sorry for them, would I kill Sumatran tigers with my bare hands for a fuzz pedal? probably not.. but I would spend my money on it, it's my decision - some people buy crack whores and man-sized nappies, I respect their right to choose how to spend their money.

Another big ingredient in transistors is matching them (http://www.analogman.com/fuzzface.htm) I can buy two unrelated transistors but I won't expect a great pedal to just happen. Then there's the biasing... a lot of people turning out these pedals don't do those things ... they'll make it using modern parts with better tolerances to avoid the extra effort.

Transistors have intrinsic qualities - different HFe and diodes have marked difference in the forward current.

Where I've socketed an SD-1 for general shits n giggles I swapped in and out different colour LEDs, bat41s, 1n34a, 1n270, 1n100, 1n4001, 1n4148 and transistors using it as a diode and it sounds different... why wouldn't they be? They have datasheets describing the differences.. I didn't get that much from stacking op amps some people have...

Equally I've bought Whipple inductors for wah pedals and I own 2 trashcan Jens ... does it sound like a JHS or Dunlop Wah? Not really... it's mostly the same circuit board, some components just make a difference, the sounds these create are on some of our favourite tracks and as such are embedded in our collective cultural psyche ...

If you read This Is Your Brain On Music by Daniel Levitin (a musicologist and producer) you'll see we fall in love with tones (surprisingly always not songs) and therefore I admire Analogman for saying "I liked the Small Clone and I liked the Ross Compressor" ... all he's then done is take those sounds and recreate them, trying to get rid of any hiss without changing the pedal (neither the Ross or the original circuit Small Clone are in production any more) - his pedals reflect R&D and man hours making it (his upgrade to a TR-2 trem is about £25) - similarly some of the Fulltone pedals seem to be a love of a tone shared....so why the disbelief and derision?

I love Jen Wahs because it was the first effect I tried on a guitar and my mind was alive with ideas of how to use it. So when a maker says inspired by their love of ... I expect they're feeling the same thing - certainly in a pedal with as finicky parts as a Small Clone.. I can full expect Bill Finnigan to get excited by gradual improvements in his Klon... some other people can imitate those statements but it's not the same.. and it sound becomes apparent

That is what people are paying for, old sounds, old parts, the knowledge to use those old parts or replicate that sound with new parts.., the love of the pedal sounds and the excitement of sharing them... you can tell who's the real boutique builders because they pitch in on forums, some will turn up to tell you to stop sharing their secrets (but ironically that's usually the less accomplished - or the secrets began in the public domain)...

I can follow instructions, I can solder, I can make enclosures - I can even hear the difference in some pedals or consider if the pot should have a different taper... Just as I'm not Joe Satriani (who I can imitate on the guitar), or Steve Vai (who I can imitate by sucking my cheeks in and playing the guitar) - I know what I like and I know how to imitate it. Album costs all being the same noone would bat an eyelid at being able to differentiate Jeff Beck from Stanley Jordan... so why do it with pedals? If it's just price point aren't the anti-snobs just as deluded as the snobs?

I am also smart enough to know why I like certain musicians WHY not with pedals? Some pedals are a rip off..(Freakish blues) some components are a rip off (Burr Brown Op amps IMO or metal film caps not being used in the signal path (a phoney will swap all the caps -wasteful)...) ... Other pedals command high prices (not demand high prices)... but their sound is as subjective as the albums we like.

Heartfeltdawn

darcym said:

Dave,

I don't know what strawman argument you're talking about.

I'm fully agreeing with you the price is out of proportion, and fully accept there are two viewpoints to if a modified circuit should be classed as a new circuit or clearly explained as a modified circuity, I can see why someone with more electrical engineering experience would class a modified circuit as a "mod" rather than a new circuit to someone who just hears it sounding different and believe it's a new - from scratch circuit.

the points I'm trying to put across are that

just because something is over priced - doesn't make it evil or a con, it just means it's overpriced
marketing something a new circuit, thats the subjective part as for a me a modification that makes the circuit different and thus you could word it as a "new circuit" to someone with my level of electrical engineering and be correct, but I also understand why the more experienced electrical engineer would take a more agressive stance that there is nothing new, but at the same time, it's just effective marketing, business do it all the time with every product they don't call the Audi A6 "a mod of the VW passat" they call it "the new Audi A6" because it's a new car, even though it's based on the Passat (or which every way around it is).
a bit more balanced discussion on this other than "it's a con, it's a scam, it's all evil !!! and you're an idiot for believing it" seems better than the attempt to one up the other view point

the part I'm disappointed by - which you seem to think is me defending an overpriced pedal is the venom against it.

TGP is blasted for blindly over hyping and justifying over priced pedals, you must see that the agression with which you are pushing the negative view is pretty much identical to TGP - just the opposing view.
You think it's an overpriced rip off/clone - therefore - FACT, discussion done, anyone who can see a difference view point is wrong and should have jibes thrown at him, this is exactly the same as what TGP is doing with the positive review of the pedal.

nothing strawman in there, just trying to be a bit more objective than "it's a hidden clone burn the maker alive and eat his family, and anyone who thinks otherwise, is an idiot"

...and there's been so much of the bullshit put out there by new makers that many are sceptical from the beginning. You can go back to bollocks like the Clay Jones overdrive to Freekish Blues to the Jan Ray thing to even a big company like Vox denying flat out that the Blue speakers made in China were different and then sheepishly having to climb down. 

Your example of the Audi A6 is funny. Yes, the A6 is effective marketing. Effective marketing is also quite often nicely composed elegant lies and nothing more. 

Dave_Mc

darcym said:

Dave,

I don't know what strawman argument you're talking about.

[I had to snip this as it was too long]

nothing strawman in there, just trying to be a bit more objective than "it's a hidden clone burn the maker alive and eat his family, and anyone who thinks otherwise, is an idiot"

Pretty much everything you said in your posts no-one with the opposing view has ever said (or if they did they were in the very small minority). No-one ever claimed they were evil, just it was "a bit dodgy", or similar words to similar effect.

Most people (whether with electronics experience or not) would think something described as "new" is actually new. I.e. not a lightly modified existing circuit.

The thing you said about "overpriced" is semantics, if you ask me. "Evil"? Perhaps not (though not great, either). "Con"? You say tomayto, I say tomahto, kind of thing.

I'm terribly sorry if I come across as too vehemently anti-ripping people off.

No, it's not the same because we don't stoop to the aforementioned straw man tactics, constantly move the goalposts, refuse to learn from past experience, make snide comments about people who can't afford them being jealous or "burger-flippers" or (maybe most importantly) hype things which make other people waste (IMO) their own money.

People who think the earth isn't flat are just as adamant they're right as people who think it's flat, that doesn't mean they're not in the right. Or that they're just as bad as the other guys.

The people who have had jibes thrown at them deserved it. Look at the vitriol thrown at the anti-hypers on TGP- most of the anti-hypers only retaliated (and when they did, normally with much more restraint than those throwing the muck at them). True, there are a few trolls who are just there for their own amusement, but again they're the exception (or at least can be ignored, and I'd be a bit annoyed if you thought I should be lumped in with them).

I appreciate that you agree with a bunch of stuff that you think we're saying, but as I said, we by and large never really said the stuff that you agree with, or if we did that wasn't really the crux of our argument, either.

Dave_Mc

More examples of strawman arguments from you:

darcym said:

however this forum is turning into the anti-view where every single pedal posted above £60 is pulled apart the company turned into mass villains out to trick you and con you, every pedal is "guessed" not factually but guessed over based on peoples perception of the circuit and what maybe in there and a £500 pedal is reduced to £8 of components and called out for being a con and a "clone" - FACT !

I've never said that (nor has anyone else that I've seen on here, though I don't read every single thread and could have missed something you didn't). I'm well aware that at western labour rates you have to charge a fair bit for labour. However, if something is trumpeted as a "game changer" in order to justify a ridiculous price and then turns out to be a clone (or lightly modified clone) then I'm not going to be best pleased.

There's also such a thing as value compared to what else is available in the market. You might be able to justify your product based on what it costs to make, but if someone else offers something very similar for much, much less money, again if you ask me that means it's not worth it. It doesn't mean that the people making the former are ripping people off (it does, in my opinion, if they're lying about what it is) but I'm still going to point out that you can get something which'll do more or less the same job for far less money.

darcym said:

Every pedal is a clone and based on something, very few original circuits are made, circuits are modified and improved on, which makes them unique, add a component, change a value it's a "new" circuit, yes it's based on something else, but someone has done the thought/trial and error to come up with this enhancement and put a price on their work/effort. If you feel the work is not worth that price, it's fair to critique it, if you feel the pedal is an acceptable price for you, that is also acceptable, but this whole attitude of unless every pedal make puts this warning on their page "Based on pedal X that I have modified" they are villains.

I wouldn't say every pedal is a clone. Yeah, a lot are. If you're charging crazy money and say (or strongly imply) it's brand new and unobtainable anywhere else, if you ask me that does make them "villains". In my opinion.

darcym said:

but it's turning into just as exteme but opposite view of the TGP where the TGP posts "THIS PEDAL IS THE AMAZING MAGIC PEDAL!!!!" and anyone who disagrees is shot down and killed, this forum (the FX one in particular) is turning into "IT'S A CLONE OF SOMETHING, I DON'T KNOW WHAT SO I'LL FIND IT IF IT KILLS ME AND POST HOW STUPID YOU ARE AND HOW MUCH OF A CON IT IS !!!!" and if you disagree your just as mocked (but not banned I grant you) as the TGP.

I never mock anyone. I always say "there but for the grace of God go I..." I was very close to buying a bunch of boutique pedals which turned out to be clones, but then the freekish thing blew up, and that made me look into things a lot more closely.

That's not to say I don't retaliate if someone is rude to me, but that's not the same as mocking.

darcym said:

why is it dodgy, half this thread is "IT'S A CLONE AND THEY ARE NOT TELLING YOU!!!" - someone does say "THIS IS A CLONE" and they are just as evil.

This whole attitude is just some sort of witch hunt.

Develop a modified circuit and give it a name - market it - you're evil for not making it clear on your website it's a modified circuit.
clone it and half the price and make it %101 clear it's a clone - you're evil

people can't win.

The cloning of the clone was dodgy, frankly. The original stated purpose of the fanboys in the thread was to clone it so others could get it- usually that means someone in the DIY community reverse engineers it and reveals what it is. Someone else came along, cloned it, refused to reveal what it was, and then was suddenly charging $300 for it (all "as far as I'm aware", the entire debacle was pretty confusing ) ). If you ask me that is dodgy, that's profiting on the back of someone else's hype machine- I think both the "original" and the "clone of the clone" in that case are dodgy.

It's not "you can't win", it's "doing A is dodgy but doing B doesn't solve A's dodginess and B itself is iffy, in my opinion." No-one in the "anti-hype" camp wanted someone else to clone it, not reveal what it was and charge $300 for it. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but far as I'm aware the people in that camp just wanted it to be revealed whether it was a clone (or lightly modified clone) or not, and if it was, what it was a clone of. Not for someone to come along and say, "Yep, it's a modified clone but you'll just have to trust me on that but, hey, it's good value because I'm only charging $300 while the "original" is $600!" If people knew what the original was a clone/modded clone of they probably wouldn't pay $600 for it, which makes the justification for the $300 price for the clone of the clone a bit tenuous. By the way, the people championing the "clone of the clone" by and large were the fanboys/hypers of the original pedal- not the people who wanted to see what the "original" really was.

If you think you're being objective, good luck with that.

Dave_Mc

stickyfiddle said:

It's not that. It's when a company produces a pedal like the Dumbloid or Jan Ray thingy claiming it's the result of endless R&D and many man-hours to come up with something amazing and new, when what they've done is put a normally-£100 Timmy or TS in a shiny box. I'm not saying anyone shouldn't buy one, but if a company called Pursche started selling something that cost the same as a 911 and looked like a 911, with the internals of a Ford Focus, I'd really want to know all of that information before buying one. I still wouldn't begrudge others for spending their own money on it if they wanted to. I can't see how this is different.

Nail on head.

Heartfeltdawn said:

...and there's been so much of the bullshit put out there by new makers that many are sceptical from the beginning. You can go back to bollocks like the Clay Jones overdrive to Freekish Blues to the Jan Ray thing to even a big company like Vox denying flat out that the Blue speakers made in China were different and then sheepishly having to climb down.

Exactly. If I know what's happened before I'm going to be cautious.

frankus said:

If it's just price point aren't the anti-snobs just as deluded as the snobs?

No, because I fully admit that certain guitar-based things are worth paying for. A glorified tubescreamer isn't one of them.

As you suggested in the rest of your (pretty good) post, some things make a difference and are worth paying for, some don't. And some things might make a difference but are really a pretty simple mod which don't necessarily justify a massive premium in price, either.

[Deleted User]

you keep referring to me making strawman arguments ? where am I making strawman arguments basically unless I say "Dave, you're so right about everything and your views should be adopted by everyone" I'm either making a stawman argument, or moving the goalposts.

I've said around 10 times I fully agree with you that the price is crazy, and I fully agree with the earlier posting that icmb made that it's not the pedal itself, but the marketing bumf that comes with it, and as you rightly show, the Jan Ray was a great example of that, that said the Jan Ray pedal, (which I'm still not %100 sure has been confirmed as a like for like clone or a variation of the circuit).

I'm not moving any goal posts at all.

I just don't know what you expect, well I do, I just don't think it's balanced. 

You seem to want certain pedal makers, normally boutique targeted ones to say

"new pedal, based on pedal Y giving new sound - our new pedal, based on an existing circuit is called Z"

which lets be honest, is just a bad marketing statement,

There is even a reference to free the tone pedals as in this thread as being clones, yet they do try to do new things like the new buffer circuit they created in all pedals, yet they are damned as rip off cloners.

Yet you don't seem to want other pedal makers with a cheaper price tag to have to disclose where their circuit is based from, eg: I'm sure big pedal makers like boss (just a random example, I certainly don't know for sure) base some of their circuits on existing pedals, but that's not on their website "SD-1 - based on the tube screamer but modified", why is there not a thread damning these guys ?

Mooer - they don't make it clear on their website there their pedals are cloned from, yet there is no the same call to damn them.

I'm not defending the over the top marketing of these boutique makers, who to some extent bring it on themselves, but loads people saying how good it is, isn't really the makers fault

Have a read through this article from the Klon maker (I'm sure you've read it already)

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/20210-builder-profile-klons-bill-finnegan?page=1

it's really good and supports some of the things you are saying such as how the cloners limit the desire to do new designs.

I just don't see/understand the venom in which certain people are targeted to be tore down, but yet others are not, I can certainly see the value of knowing what's in a pedal for discussion, but for someone like me without the electronics experience, it doesn't change anything other than "this pedal sounds good, I'd like that sound, can I get that at a cheaper price, or do I need to save up the full price"

The Klon article raises a nice point about how Bill doesn't believe the clones are as good because of his experience with the circuit, and shows the effort he put into trying new components, so it seems harsh to me why you say "they just changed one part, it's a clone with one part" without knowing what effort they put into changing that one part (one part is just an example as I don't know whats changed).

[Deleted User]

 

...and there's been so much of the bullshit put out there by new makers that many are sceptical from the beginning. You can go back to bollocks like the Clay Jones overdrive to Freekish Blues to the Jan Ray thing to even a big company like Vox denying flat out that the Blue speakers made in China were different and then

This, I can fully appreciate, a flat out lie, such as the vox example you give, is unacceptable and should be exposed, putting a positive spin on your product or not volunteering your products design origins (which is pretty much only applicable to pedals) isn't that bad unless it's a direct copy being marketed as something else

Dave_Mc

darcym said:

(i) you keep referring to me making strawman arguments ? where am I making strawman arguments basically unless I say "Dave, you're so right about everything and your views should be adopted by everyone" I'm either making a stawman argument, or moving the goalposts.

(ii) I've said around 10 times I fully agree with you that the price is crazy, and I fully agree with the earlier posting that icmb made that it's not the pedal itself, but the marketing bumf that comes with it, and as you rightly show, the Jan Ray was a great example of that, that said the Jan Ray pedal, (which I'm still not %100 sure has been confirmed as a like for like clone or a variation of the circuit).

(iii) I'm not moving any goal posts at all.

I just don't know what you expect, well I do, I just don't think it's balanced. 

You seem to want certain pedal makers, normally boutique targeted ones to say

"new pedal, based on pedal Y giving new sound - our new pedal, based on an existing circuit is called Z"

which lets be honest, is just a bad marketing statement,

(iv)There is even a reference to free the tone pedals as in this thread as being clones, yet they do try to do new things like the new buffer circuit they created in all pedals, yet they are damned as rip off cloners.

(v) Yet you don't seem to want other pedal makers with a cheaper price tag to have to disclose where their circuit is based from, eg: I'm sure big pedal makers like boss (just a random example, I certainly don't know for sure) base some of their circuits on existing pedals, but that's not on their website "SD-1 - based on the tube screamer but modified", why is there not a thread damning these guys ?

Mooer - they don't make it clear on their website there their pedals are cloned from, yet there is no the same call to damn them.

I'm not defending the over the top marketing of these boutique makers, who to some extent bring it on themselves, but loads people saying how good it is, isn't really the makers fault

(vi) Have a read through this article from the Klon maker (I'm sure you've read it already)

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/20210-builder-profile-klons-bill-finnegan?page=1

it's really good and supports some of the things you are saying such as how the cloners limit the desire to do new designs.

(vii) I just don't see/understand the venom in which certain people are targeted to be tore down, but yet others are not, I can certainly see the value of knowing what's in a pedal for discussion, but for someone like me without the electronics experience, it doesn't change anything other than "this pedal sounds good, I'd like that sound, can I get that at a cheaper price, or do I need to save up the full price"

The Klon article raises a nice point about how Bill doesn't believe the clones are as good because of his experience with the circuit, and shows the effort he put into trying new components, so it seems harsh to me why you say "they just changed one part, it's a clone with one part" without knowing what effort they put into changing that one part (one part is just an example as I don't know whats changed).

(i) ) No that's not true. If you disagree with me, that's fair enough. I just don't like words which I've never said being put into my mouth. I've never said they're evil, or that people buying the expensive clones are stupid, or that pedals should only be worth the cost of the parts, or anything like that. See my previous (massive, sorry ) ) posts.

(ii)

It was a lightly modified timmy, far as i'm aware. One of the guys I know on another forum reversed it and posted the proof online.

(iii) I dunno. I'm not that keen on marketing either )

(iv) I don't have any experience with FTT pedals. However, I'm sure I've seen the guys who know way more about electronics than I do say that designing a good buffer is pretty easy. Cheaping out (in an area which they hope prospective buyers won't notice at the point of purchase) seems to be the reason that cheaper pedals tend to have mediocre buffers, not the fact they're hard to design.

(v) There probably is a bit of a double standard, to be fair. I don't think I'm (that) guilty of it (I normally complain when I think the cheapies are doing something wrong, too), but still, there probably is. That's sort of to be expected, though- if someone pretends something isn't a clone and charges a way higher price, people (with some justification, in my opinion) feel they've been ripped off. If the same thing happens with a cheaper (than the original) pedal, people think, "Sweet, here's a way to get that pedal for less!" ) EDIT: This just hit me, and probably goes some way to explain the double standard too- even if both the cheapies and the ueber-boutique ones are wrong, they're wrong for different reasons. The ueber-boutique ones are wrong in a way that rips off/hurts (allegedly!) the consumer, whereas the cheapies are wrong (allegedly!) in a way that rips off/hurts the original manufacturer (and arguably benefits the consumer because of lower prices), so it stands to sense that internet forums (which tend to be made up of consumers more than manufacturers) will get more annoyed at the former. )

It kind of goes back to the money thing... in principle it shouldn't matter, but in practice it does ) When it happens with an expensive pedal, you're being doubly-ripped- you're both being lied to (allegedly!) about what the thing is, and also having a large amount of money taken off you for the pleasure. It's like if someone cons you out of 50p, you're annoyed. If someone cons you out of £500 you're annoyed and possibly also in financial difficulties.

But I agree with you, whether cheap or expensive, they should be upfront.

Funnily enough, the law might actually be hindering that. While circuits can't be copyrighted, brand names etc. can. So legally you can get into hot water if you claim to make a tubescreamer clone. ) Though there are many ways you can strongly imply it, of course, and plenty of the people I'm complaining about (the expensive clones) absolutely aren't only being prevented from being up-front by legal concerns- they goop their circuits, after all.

I'm not sure about it being the makers' faults, either. In some cases, it's not, you're right. In others, they do play on it.

(vi) Bill Finnegan says a lot of things, I think. ) At least, that the reputation he has. I wouldn't necessarily assume that what he's saying is gospel, in other words (just like you shouldn't assume what anyone's saying is gospel).

(vii) I agree with you- to a certain extent, anyway. I can't build a pedal and I'll often buy a pedal if it does a tone I want even if I know it's quite similar to something I already have. And sometimes small changes can make all the difference. But the difference is the price (and the obfuscation of what the pedal is)- I wouldn't pay $600 for something which can probably be achieved with a cheaper pedal, either. And a lot of the really expensive ones I complain about often have mods which don't really add anything, but which neuter the controls of the original pedal (e.g. the jan ray and freekish).

frankus

Dave_Mc said:

frankus said:

If it's just price point aren't the anti-snobs just as deluded as the snobs?

No, because I fully admit that certain guitar-based things are worth paying for. A glorified tubescreamer isn't one of them.

As you suggested in the rest of your (pretty good) post, some things make a difference and are worth paying for, some don't. And some things might make a difference but are really a pretty simple mod which don't necessarily justify a massive premium in price, either.

I agree with that.

I guess my reaction was to someone's incredulity that rare/old components make a difference.

I can't tell if I'm looking to justify my opinion or clarifying it, but I don't class your comments as "anti-snob":

Anti-snob, I'd class as denying the talent, component rarity and other important factors of some boutique makers.
Snob - is denying the intelligence or insight of people doubting certain pedals (as well as people deliberately trolling them).

In the middle is the Rationalist (most people on the thread), able to see that either extreme is never always right, and getting grief from the rival factions.

You're right that my post was a bit rambly too

I get pissed off at the anti-snob's "look at all the great pedals that can be bought cheap now!" when rather a lot of them are made by big corporations riding on the coat-tails of hard working individuals scratching a living (like Paul Cochrane)... but it's not all bad the MN3007 chip has made a resurgence because of big corps

martinw

frankus said:

I get pissed off at the anti-snob's "look at all the great pedals that can be bought cheap now!" when rather a lot of them are made by big corporations riding on the coat-tails of hard working individuals scratching a living (like Paul Cochrane)

There's certainly an element of anti-snob double standard on this forum, where cheap stuff seems to be ok (Mooer, Bugera etc) as against the condemnation of more expensive things as being in some way a con.

Answer: they're both wrong, but everyone rushes to order Mooers from Marcmart etc as cheaply as possible, oh and lets not pay VAT and duty if we can avoid it. Where's that moral high ground again?

Maxi

I just think stupidly overpriced and rough looking pedals are a laugh , I love looking at them , I certainly wouldnt get uptight about the opinions they create once its clear what it is . No ones disputing that from what I can tell . Lets have some more dodgy looking ones to brows over ! Bumble bee in a baked bean can Youtube clips please

Dave_Mc

frankus said:

Dave_Mc said:

frankus said:

If it's just price point aren't the anti-snobs just as deluded as the snobs?

No, because I fully admit that certain guitar-based things are worth paying for. A glorified tubescreamer isn't one of them.

As you suggested in the rest of your (pretty good) post, some things make a difference and are worth paying for, some don't. And some things might make a difference but are really a pretty simple mod which don't necessarily justify a massive premium in price, either.

I agree with that.

I guess my reaction was to someone's incredulity that rare/old components make a difference.

I can't tell if I'm looking to justify my opinion or clarifying it, but I don't class your comments as "anti-snob":

Anti-snob, I'd class as denying the talent, component rarity and other important factors of some boutique makers.
Snob - is denying the intelligence or insight of people doubting certain pedals (as well as people deliberately trolling them).

In the middle is the Rationalist (most people on the thread), able to see that either extreme is never always right, and getting grief from the rival factions.

You're right that my post was a bit rambly too

I get pissed off at the anti-snob's "look at all the great pedals that can be bought cheap now!" when rather a lot of them are made by big corporations riding on the coat-tails of hard working individuals scratching a living (like Paul Cochrane)... but it's not all bad the MN3007 chip has made a resurgence because of big corps

Thanks And yeah I don't deny that some people are really good at making/designing pedals and those ones are worth a premium. The funny thing is that often the really good people's things are actually pretty reasonably-priced (e.g. martin's amps)- it's the really cheap or really expensive (compared to usual market rate) stuff which rings the warning bells. And there have also been a lot of horror stories about (some of) the really expensive boutique stuff actually not being all that well made.

I'd never say that Joyo or even Mooer are built as well as the (well-made) higher end stuff. That goes without saying. But for just trying out circuits to see if you like them if you're duffing about at home like me, they're cool.

I didn't mean to imply your post was rambly ) I just meant I didn't agree that everyone who disagreed with super-expensive pedals which turn out to be a clone/lightly-modded clone do so solely because they can't afford them (which wasn't what you were saying, anyway). I agreed with most of the rest of it.

And yeah you're right, a lot of the cheap pedals (as I mentioned above) are hurting other manufacturers. A lot (not all) of the cheap clones are often clones of mass-produced pedals. Not that that necessarily makes it right, of course, but what happened to Paul C (at least until recently, it may well be starting to change now) is the exception. Plus a lot of the things which have been cloned were themselves of dubious originality (or at least, you could make a decent argument either way as to whether they were truly original or not). Not talking about the Timmy here, far as I'm aware it was original.

martinw said:

frankus said:

I get pissed off at the anti-snob's "look at all the great pedals that can be bought cheap now!" when rather a lot of them are made by big corporations riding on the coat-tails of hard working individuals scratching a living (like Paul Cochrane)

There's certainly an element of anti-snob double standard on this forum, where cheap stuff seems to be ok (Mooer, Bugera etc) as against the condemnation of more expensive things as being in some way a con.

Answer: they're both wrong, but everyone rushes to order Mooers from Marcmart etc as cheaply as possible, oh and lets not pay VAT and duty if we can avoid it. Where's that moral high ground again?

I know on UG we constantly make fire extinguisher jokes about Bugera. ) As I said, there are things which are worth paying money for. Even the cheaper pedals like Mooer, Joyo etc. I'd be wary of using live really. When I say a $600 OD is a crazy price, I don't mean compared to a £20 Joyo, I mean compared to a well-made £100 or £150 pedal made in the west.

You could possibly make the case that VAT and duty are unfair/regressive taxes (or from the other side of the political spectrum, discouraging business/consumption), though that's another thread ) Also I'm well aware that that doesn't help people who make stuff here and have to pay it whether they agree with it or not.

Dave_Mc

Time for a bump, I think...

http://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23472&start=220#p235831

http://tagboardeffects.blogspot.com.br/2014/03/shins-music-dumbloid-standard.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+GuitarFxLayouts+(Guitar+FX+Layouts)&utm_content=FaceBook

TL;DNR: It seems to be a modded tubescreamer. No diodes in the feedback loop of the first op-amp stage, but now there's a single LED for asymmetric clipping in the second op-amp stage, and the accent control is a drive control for said second stage.

EDIT: Just to make clear where the credit lies, I didn't reverse it. And I didn't even notice it had been reversed myself, someone on another forum flagged it up for me )

Drew_TNBD

Looking at my board... It's all Hardwire and Boss pedals... and I just bought a Hardwire Chorus from a chap on here! If the Hardwire delay's tap-tempo implementation wasn't shite, I'd probably have no Boss pedals at all!