EU - We're staying in

Garthy

Scaremongering has absolutely dominated both campaigns, which makes no sense. A few talking heads have said how great it would be to leave but hardly any- I say hardly any, I actually haven't seen anyone put a positive spin on why we should stay, only doom and gloom for why we shouldn't leave. The EU has been serving spite and bile every day warning us not to leave, we'll be sorry, we will starve, we will be skint, it's financial suicide etc.

It just sounds like an abusive spouse demeaning their other half that they would be nothing without them, she'll take him to the cleaners if he leaves, he won't break her nose if she stays...

Nobody overseas has asked us to stay, to think carefully, not to make a rash decision. Just threats and warnings and for me that is the most compelling arguement to cut and run.

PolarityMan

Scaremongering is why the issue is even on the table. At the end of the day the Syrian refugee crises is going to be something that goes away on its own eventually so while it's fine for that to be part of the debate, at least for me it isn't actually the primary issue.

I said before in another thread, my gut feel is out is probably better but I don't think the due diligence has been done and on that basis I can't vote that way, so I'll be voting to stay in.

When the referendum was first put on the table we should have started negotiations on trade so we weren't going into the vote blind.

CabbageCat

Garthy said:

Scaremongering has absolutely dominated both campaigns, which makes no sense. A few talking heads have said how great it would be to leave but hardly any- I say hardly any, I actually haven't seen anyone put a positive spin on why we should stay, only doom and gloom for why we shouldn't leave. The EU has been serving spite and bile every day warning us not to leave, we'll be sorry, we will starve, we will be skint, it's financial suicide etc.

It just sounds like an abusive spouse demeaning their other half that they would be nothing without them, she'll take him to the cleaners if he leaves, he won't break her nose if she stays...

Nobody overseas has asked us to stay, to think carefully, not to make a rash decision. Just threats and warnings and for me that is the most compelling arguement to cut and run.

I guess if someone says "Look at the good things the EU has done for us...",  which appears to be the basis of the majority of the "in" propaganda, one can look at it as either as positive carroting ("look at how great it is here...") or scaremongery sticking ("look at what you're going to lose...") depending, probably, on whether it suits one's own agenda to demean the opposite campaign.

Hertz32

There are no facts about what will happen whether we stay or leave, it's all speculative. I'm in, on the grounds it's better the devil you know, than the devil you don't.

Plus, if we vote leave and then privatise healthcare we'll be even more like the pigging USA and they are the absolute antithesis of what I stand for.

Garthy

CabbageCat said:

I guess if someone says "Look at the good things the EU has done for us...",  which appears to be the basis of the majority of the "in" propaganda,

Had I actually seen any of that I'd agree with you. Carrots certainly have not made the majority of the In campaign that I have seen.

digitalscream

Garthy said:

Scaremongering has absolutely dominated both campaigns, which makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. A proper analysis - even if biased either way - is a fantastically complex thing. There are so many variables that it's not possible to get it across in a political campaign (and even if you could, 99% of the population wouldn't understand it or be interested in trying to).

Therefore...it comes down to a reduction into dumbed-down single issues. The problem with that is that any single issue makes for an incredibly weak argument, so each side is reduced to poking holes in the opposition's issues and hoping that nobody pays attention to the man behind the curtain regarding their own.

Fretwired

Hertz32 said:

There are no facts about what will happen whether we stay or leave, it's all speculative. I'm in, on the grounds it's better the devil you know, than the devil you don't.

Plus, if we vote leave and then privatise healthcare we'll be even more like the pigging USA and they are the absolute antithesis of what I stand for.

You should check the EU's plans for a harmonised EU healthcare system - in a word competition. The EU loves big business. And if the EU/US trade deal goes ahead the NHS will be open to private US firms.

Chalky

If we stay in Europe it is nigh on impossible for the UK to raise its living standards. Any published improvement will be seen as the reason why EU funds and grants should be diverted elsewhere. It will also act as a beacon to EU migration - why wouldn't you want to move here if the UK has a better standard of living for your family?

ICBM

Fretwired said:

Hertz32 said:

There are no facts about what will happen whether we stay or leave, it's all speculative. I'm in, on the grounds it's better the devil you know, than the devil you don't. 

Plus, if we vote leave and then privatise healthcare we'll be even more like the pigging USA and they are the absolute antithesis of what I stand for. 

You should check the EU's plans for a harmonised EU healthcare system - in a word competition. The EU loves big business. And if the EU/US trade deal goes ahead the NHS will be open to private US firms.

As it will be if we leave and try to sign an independent deal with the US. I know I'm beginning to sound like a stuck record, but this has to be repeated because some people still think that leaving the EU will allow us to negotiate a trade deal with the US without TTIP or its equivalent. Nothing could possibly be further from the truth - the US simply will not negotiate when they are in such a dominant position, since we would need the deal far more than they do - they will simply present us with a deal including all the stuff in TTIP that we don't want, take it or leave it. Not only that, Cameron and the Tories are actively in favour of it.

The only way to stop TTIP is to join up with the rest of the people in the EU, led by the French, who are intent on blocking it and who alone have the economic power to make the US listen. I know this goes hard when we haven't seen eye to eye with the Frogs since Julius Caesar landed with the Army Of Gaul on the south coast...

Garthy

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

Hertz32 said:

There are no facts about what will happen whether we stay or leave, it's all speculative. I'm in, on the grounds it's better the devil you know, than the devil you don't. 

Plus, if we vote leave and then privatise healthcare we'll be even more like the pigging USA and they are the absolute antithesis of what I stand for. 

You should check the EU's plans for a harmonised EU healthcare system - in a word competition. The EU loves big business. And if the EU/US trade deal goes ahead the NHS will be open to private US firms.

As it will be if we leave and try to sign an independent deal with the US. I know I'm beginning to sound like a stuck record, but this has to be repeated because some people still think that leaving the EU will allow us to negotiate a trade deal with the US without TTIP or its equivalent. Nothing could possibly be further from the truth - the US simply will not negotiate when they are in such a dominant position, since we would need the deal far more than they do - they will simply present us with a deal including all the stuff in TTIP that we don't want, take it or leave it. Not only that, Cameron and the Tories are actively in favour of it.

The only way to stop TTIP is to join up with the rest of the people in the EU, led by the French, who are intent on blocking it and who alone have the economic power to make the US listen. I know this goes hard when we haven't seen eye to eye with the Frogs since Julius Caesar landed with the Army Of Gaul on the south coast...

Just to be clear, are you saying that France alone as enough economic power to make the USA listen?

Fretwired

Garthy said:

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

Hertz32 said:

There are no facts about what will happen whether we stay or leave, it's all speculative. I'm in, on the grounds it's better the devil you know, than the devil you don't. 

Plus, if we vote leave and then privatise healthcare we'll be even more like the pigging USA and they are the absolute antithesis of what I stand for. 

You should check the EU's plans for a harmonised EU healthcare system - in a word competition. The EU loves big business. And if the EU/US trade deal goes ahead the NHS will be open to private US firms.

As it will be if we leave and try to sign an independent deal with the US. I know I'm beginning to sound like a stuck record, but this has to be repeated because some people still think that leaving the EU will allow us to negotiate a trade deal with the US without TTIP or its equivalent. Nothing could possibly be further from the truth - the US simply will not negotiate when they are in such a dominant position, since we would need the deal far more than they do - they will simply present us with a deal including all the stuff in TTIP that we don't want, take it or leave it. Not only that, Cameron and the Tories are actively in favour of it.

The only way to stop TTIP is to join up with the rest of the people in the EU, led by the French, who are intent on blocking it and who alone have the economic power to make the US listen. I know this goes hard when we haven't seen eye to eye with the Frogs since Julius Caesar landed with the Army Of Gaul on the south coast...

Just to be clear, are you saying that France alone as enough economic power to make the USA listen?

I doubt it .. as I understand it the French could be overruled.

digitalscream

Garthy said:

ICBM said:

The only way to stop TTIP is to join up with the rest of the people in the EU, led by the French, who are intent on blocking it and who alone have the economic power to make the US listen. I know this goes hard when we haven't seen eye to eye with the Frogs since Julius Caesar landed with the Army Of Gaul on the south coast...

Just to be clear, are you saying that France alone as enough economic power to make the USA listen?

How on earth did you draw that conclusion?

Try rearranging it...

"...the rest of the people in the EU who are intent on blocking it and alone have the economic power to make the US listen, led by the French."

Does that help?

EDIT: Goddammit, you made me waste my 10,000th comment on the EU. Shame on you.

goldtop

The UK's lever with the USA would not be trade, it'd be diplo-military. We punch above our weight and lend (some) legitimacy to all sorts of US self-interest adventures.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

Hertz32 said:

There are no facts about what will happen whether we stay or leave, it's all speculative. I'm in, on the grounds it's better the devil you know, than the devil you don't. 

Plus, if we vote leave and then privatise healthcare we'll be even more like the pigging USA and they are the absolute antithesis of what I stand for. 

You should check the EU's plans for a harmonised EU healthcare system - in a word competition. The EU loves big business. And if the EU/US trade deal goes ahead the NHS will be open to private US firms.

As it will be if we leave and try to sign an independent deal with the US. I know I'm beginning to sound like a stuck record, but this has to be repeated because some people still think that leaving the EU will allow us to negotiate a trade deal with the US without TTIP or its equivalent. Nothing could possibly be further from the truth - the US simply will not negotiate when they are in such a dominant position, since we would need the deal far more than they do - they will simply present us with a deal including all the stuff in TTIP that we don't want, take it or leave it. Not only that, Cameron and the Tories are actively in favour of it.

The only way to stop TTIP is to join up with the rest of the people in the EU, led by the French, who are intent on blocking it and who alone have the economic power to make the US listen. I know this goes hard when we haven't seen eye to eye with the Frogs since Julius Caesar landed with the Army Of Gaul on the south coast...

I take a different view. The UK is an important US partner and if Trump gets in he'll want us on board from a security point of view. GCHQ is the best intelligence gathering service in the world, the US has a base or two in the UK and the Royal Navy is about to take delivery of two new aircraft carriers, we have a nuclear deterrent and no doubt Trump would like us to replace it. We buy loads of high tech US kit ..

Some of the onerous terms within TTIP are part of an attempt to rebalance the EU/US business relationship. The EU doesn't really believe in open markets and has consistently attacked US firms like Google and Microsoft.

By contrast the UK is more like the US - open markets and free trade. I think we could get a good trade deal with the US.

Garthy

digitalscream said:

Garthy said:

ICBM said:

The only way to stop TTIP is to join up with the rest of the people in the EU, led by the French, who are intent on blocking it and who alone have the economic power to make the US listen. I know this goes hard when we haven't seen eye to eye with the Frogs since Julius Caesar landed with the Army Of Gaul on the south coast...

Just to be clear, are you saying that France alone as enough economic power to make the USA listen?

How on earth did you draw that conclusion?

Try rearranging it...

"...the rest of the people in the EU who are intent on blocking it and alone have the economic power to make the US listen, led by the French."

Does that help?

EDIT: Goddammit, you made me waste my 10,000th comment on the EU. Shame on you.

The 'who alone bit' is what I was questioning. I didn't make you do anything either.

ICBM

Garthy said:

Just to be clear, are you saying that France alone as enough economic power to make the USA listen?

Not alone economically - but they do politically if they can veto an EU-US trade deal, which appears to be the case.

Troy

For me, if the UK public vote to stay in then that'll send a signal to the EU to impose the euro, make UK part of the Schengen Zone, etc.. as they'll say the British public wants to be European.

Chalky

Troy;1063502" said:

For me, if the UK public vote to stay in then that'll send a signal to the EU to impose the euro, make UK part of the Schengen Zone, etc.. as they'll say the British public wants to be European.

THIS! Only the utterly ignorant can think that things will stay the same after an IN vote.

ICBM

Troy said:

For me, if the UK public vote to stay in then that'll send a signal to the EU to impose the euro, make UK part of the Schengen Zone, etc.. as they'll say the British public wants to be European.

They cannot "impose" anything like that. That's just Euro-paranoia.

It's quite true that "ever closer union" has been part of the agenda - but it is not inevitable and many of the other countries are starting to realise that it has drawbacks. Other countries are beginning to have second thoughts about Schengen too.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Troy said:

For me, if the UK public vote to stay in then that'll send a signal to the EU to impose the euro, make UK part of the Schengen Zone, etc.. as they'll say the British public wants to be European.

They cannot "impose" anything like that. That's just Euro-paranoia.

It's quite true that "ever closer union" has been part of the agenda - but it is not inevitable and many of the other countries are starting to realise that it has drawbacks. Other countries are beginning to have second thoughts about Schengen too.

They can. This is how it will work. After June the EU will issue a document on the next phase of political and economic integration. If the UK wants to be a part of it then we will have to take the Euro. If we stick with the pound then we won't be part of the decision making process covering a wide range of economic activity. Those decisions will be imposed on the UK and will favour the Eurozone group. All new EU members have to commit to taking the Euro so if Turkey joins it will take the Euro as its currency. The UK will be in a minority of countries without the Euro.

If we vote to stay in the UK will take the Euro. We will not have a choice as to not do so would be economic suicide.