EU - We're staying in

Drew_TNBD

POST FACTS AND SOURCES FOR FUCKSAKE!

Placidcasual79

Drew_fx said:

POST FACTS AND SOURCES FOR FUCKS

Drew I am sorry if I am p*ssing you off here - its not my intention. Those are facts - I haven't posted sources as I didn't realise they where required. Its just my opinion. Just ignore me - I like this forum and don't want to offend any of the good people who use it. 

Jez6345789

As I see it most people have missed the fact that if there was a vote to leave, that's when the real negotiations would begin. Cameron's negotiations for a better deal where very poor media theatre. Once there is a political mandate the EU will bend to keep us deals will be done on the usual basis of we did not realise the depth of feeling, they will then argue the turnout was low and the majority to low to be representative and Cameron will take us back for a 2nd referendum on that basis and a new a new better deal.

Fretwired

UnclePsychosis said:

Anyone more competent than Cameron and Corbyn would have had it won ages ago. 

I hear the "worst Prime Minister ever" accusation thrown at Cameron a lot. Losing the EU referendum would certainly put him up there. 

He's performed more U-turns than a Toxteth joy rider and he approved the Tory campaign for London mayor which looks like it's been good for democracy in that the turnout was high ensuring Zac lost ..

He also failed in his EU negotiations and has broken a long list of promises. I think he's the worst Tory PM in living memory.

quarky

I'm not crazy enough to attempt to speak for Drew, but I don't think you have offended anyone, not yet.

Your post about Cameron and the EU just seems bizarre though. Despite the fundamental contradictions (you hate Cameron so want to do what he says and stay in the EU), it seems crazy to base a decision that could affect the country for generations, on the personality of the current PM. Still, I suppose some people still don't vote for the Tory's because of what they think happened in the 80's (and I am sure there must be a Labour equivalent (or will be in Blair). so that is politics for you. We are all guilty of it to some degree.

Interesting article here on rent control

http://uk.businessinsider.com/does-rent-control-work-no-it-actually-increases-rent-prices-for-most-people-2015-9

I think the housing issue needs a solution, but I think increasing supply is the only real way to do it.

Chalky

Placidcasual79;1064015" said:

Drew_fx said:

POST FACTS AND SOURCES FOR FUCKSDrew I am sorry if I am p*ssing you off here - its not my intention. Those are facts - I haven't posted sources as I didn't realise they where required. Its just my opinion. Just ignore me - I like this forum and don't want to offend any of the good people who use it. 

The vote IN is well supported by young workers so let's look at the....er....wonderful success of the EU protecting the jobs of young workers?

How about http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

Fretwired

Placidcasual79 said:

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

Am I the only one that thinks the phrases... ' strong leader'... and 'Jeremy Corbyn'... are like opposite poles of a magnet (Alnico V, of course).

To be clear leaving Europe is in the interest of the ruling elite - it will remove almost all restriction on the private market in the name of allowing us to be competitive - who'd do you think that will benefit? It won't improve wages for working people, it won't improve conditions for working people, it won't improve the lot of those dependent on social security - all will be sacrificed at the alter maximising profit. 

We have to stay in......

You're wrong. Wages are affected by supply and demand. Big employers love being in the EU as they can advertise for workers from Eastern Europe. Immigration has suppressed wages at the bottom forcing successive governments to provide in-work benefits to suplement low wages. If you want wages to rise you need to leave the EU ...

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jan/17/eastern-european-immigration-hits-wages

ICBM

That was exactly the argument the Scots used about independence - that once we'd voted Yes, we would immediately enter into negotiations for a new, looser Union with the rest of the UK to use the pound and have our own little free trade zone, and share a lot of other stuff where we have common interests... and England said 'bugger off, if you vote Yes you're on your own'.

Which option do you think the EU will want to apply to the UK if we leave?

Fretwired

ICBM said:

That was exactly the argument the Scots used about independence - that once we'd voted Yes, we would immediately enter into negotiations for a new, looser Union with the rest of the UK to use the pound and have our own little free trade zone, and share a lot of other stuff where we have common interests... and England said 'bugger off, if you vote Yes you're on your own'.

Which option do you think the EU will want to apply to the UK if we leave?

Now let me see .. Merkel and Hollande say bugger off. The heads or VW Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Siemens, Bosch, French farmers, Spanish fishermen and the leaders from a host of countries will hit the panic button. We take far more goods from the EU than we export. If they tell us to bugger off we should close the borders. The EU would be in recession, the Euro would crash and BMW would be laying off workers. French farmers would be burning things ... the UK is the world's fifth biggest economy. We'd get a deal .. we're not Norway.

quarky

Reverend said:

I can't wait until we take back power from unelected eurocrats.

And give it to unelected American businesses.

I do wonder if there is much relevance to that these days when you look at foreign ownership

..

http://uk.businessinsider.com/ons-statistics-on-uk-share-ownership-2015-9

http://www.ofii.org/sites/default/files/FDIUS_2013_Report.pdf

Fretwired

quarky said:

Reverend said:

I can't wait until we take back power from unelected eurocrats.

And give it to unelected American businesses.

I do wonder if there is much relevance to that these days when you look at foreign ownership

..

http://uk.businessinsider.com/ons-statistics-on-uk-share-ownership-2015-9

http://www.ofii.org/sites/default/files/FDIUS_2013_Report.pdf

Have a wis .. the world has changed and there's a big wide world outside the EU. Let's control our own destiny .. too many cowards round here .. :-)

Chalky

Fretwired;1064039" said:

ICBM said:

That was exactly the argument the Scots used about independence - that once we'd voted Yes, we would immediately enter into negotiations for a new, looser Union with the rest of the UK to use the pound and have our own little free trade zone, and share a lot of other stuff where we have common interests... and England said 'bugger off, if you vote Yes you're on your own'.



Which option do you think the EU will want to apply to the UK if we leave?





Now let me see .. Merkel and Hollande say bugger off. The heads or VW Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Siemens, Bosch, French farmers, Spanish fishermen and the leaders from a host of countries will hit the panic button. We take far more goods from the EU than we export. If they tell us to bugger off we should close the borders. The EU would be in recession, the Euro would crash and BMW would be laying off workers. French farmers would be burning things ... the UK is the world's fifth biggest economy. We'd get a deal .. we're not Norway.

Nah, you're wrong there. We only spend a Billion euros a month on German cars so I'm sure all those German car-workers would shout "Oh yes, we are happy to be lose our jobs just so Angela can teach those English a lesson!" And all the Workers Councils in all the ancillary companies would agree!

Because we wouldn't introduce punitive import tariffs would we? No, we'd let Angela do whatever damage she liked to this country and we would not retaliate - that would be naughty.

Placidcasual79

quarky said:

I'm not crazy enough to attempt to speak for Drew, but I don't think you have offended anyone, not yet.

Your post about Cameron and the EU just seems bizarre though. Despite the fundamental contradictions (you hate Cameron so want to do what he says and stay in the EU), it seems crazy to base a decision that could affect the country for generations, on the personality of the current PM. Still, I suppose some people still don't vote for the Tory's because of what they think happened in the 80's (and I am sure there must be a Labour equivalent (or will be in Blair). so that is politics for you. We are all guilty of it to some degree.

Interesting article here on rent control

http://uk.businessinsider.com/does-rent-control-work-no-it-actually-increases-rent-prices-for-most-people-2015-9

I think the housing issue needs a solution, but I think increasing supply is the only real way to do it.

Thanks - I hope not. I am aware of Drew's seniority on this site - which I've very much enjoyed contributing too since going recently. 

It isn't my intention to p*ss anyone off - just my thoughts....

My original post about Cameron/Corbyn was a response to another post that suggested Corbyn wasn't a strong leader, a point with which I fundamentally disagree. I was trying to demonstrate the contrast between the two. 

I wasn't specifically getting into a debate about in our out of Europe - as you rightly say Cameron wants to remain in as well..... and I totally agree that it is senseless to reach a conclusion on such a significant issue based on your perceptions about a parties leader. 

I'll have read of the article.....thanks

Fretwired

Placidcasual79 said:

My original post about Cameron/Corbyn was a response to another post that suggested Corbyn wasn't a strong leader, a point with which I fundamentally disagree. I was trying to demonstrate the contrast between the two. 

Define strong leader .. what is a strong leader? A dictator perhaps. I lived in Denmark for a while and the politics there is different. Party leaders tend to be inclusive and are prepared to debate issues calmly rather than taking the adversarial approach we do in the UK. They want you to engage with their vision and ideas not in some fear driven negative narrative around privatisation of the NHS or Labour leaders sharing a platform with Mr X. I showed some colleagues PMQs and they were hooked on the entertainment value but didn't want it in Denmark.

We seemed hooked on the idea that unless a party leader is overdosing on testosterone and ranting like a madman then he's weak leader. Corbyn's different and that's refreshing .. over time people may warm to him and grow tired of Tory spin and negative campaigning.

Placidcasual79

Fretwired said:

A strong leader is some one who has a definable vision based on transparent principles, some one with conviction - A strong leader doesn't need to be loud or inflexible - a strong leader can debate and is transparent - assertive, not aggressive. 

I totally agree with your point about the UK's harmful perception of what makes a strong leader. i believe Corbyn is strong because he his willing to debate - any move away from the snide bickering of party politics in this country would be welcomed by me 

Drew_TNBD

Placidcasual79 said:

quarky said:

I'm not crazy enough to attempt to speak for Drew, but I don't think you have offended anyone, not yet.

Your post about Cameron and the EU just seems bizarre though. Despite the fundamental contradictions (you hate Cameron so want to do what he says and stay in the EU), it seems crazy to base a decision that could affect the country for generations, on the personality of the current PM. Still, I suppose some people still don't vote for the Tory's because of what they think happened in the 80's (and I am sure there must be a Labour equivalent (or will be in Blair). so that is politics for you. We are all guilty of it to some degree.

Interesting article here on rent control

http://uk.businessinsider.com/does-rent-control-work-no-it-actually-increases-rent-prices-for-most-people-2015-9

I think the housing issue needs a solution, but I think increasing supply is the only real way to do it.

Thanks - I hope not. I am aware of Drew's seniority on this site

Seniority? Mate, it's not a fucking counterstrike clan.

I'm not pissed off, and wasn't about 7 hours ago either. It's just that some people really don't seem to get it - if you expect to be taken seriously, post your sources and your evidence.

The only people I've seen post evidence are @quarky and @chalky !

Sambostar

Jez6345789 said:

As I see it most people have missed the fact that if there was a vote to leave, that's when the real negotiations would begin. Cameron's negotiations for a better deal where very poor media theatre. Once there is a political mandate the EU will bend to keep us deals will be done on the usual basis of we did not realise the depth of feeling, they will then argue the turnout was low and the majority to low to be representative and Cameron will take us back for a 2nd referendum on that basis and a new a new better deal.

Given the kind of autocracy that passes for democracy in this country (Police Commissioners elections etc).  I would put money on the fact this is what exactly will happen. Except Cameron hasn't got any balls.

chillidoggy

Whilst I wouldn't necessarily disagree about Cameron's morality, it appears that blinkers are firmly in place when it comes to Corbyn's cozying up to some very unsavoury characters and causes.

Sambostar

Never trust a commie.

Sambostar