Conspiracy theories

scrumhalf

quarky said:

Don't forget, it isn't just dilution, you need to bang the solution on a board three time to give it the homeopathic powers.

Be fair, I think the board has to be covered in leather. Which would make all the difference, surely.

HAL9000

Crop circles. Even after hoaxers Bower and Chorley admitted to producing them conspiracy theorists were still claiming that it was impossible that they were created by humans.

MrBump

quarky said:

MrBump said:

<girds loins in preparation for the abuse and vitriol reserved for those disagreeing with the prevailing theory in this room>

No disagreement from me. It isn't that homeopathy doesn't work, it just works as a placebo at best. And a stopped clock is right twice a day. You doctor was wrong, your quack was right with the diet changes. I don't think that is so unusual. A doctor can generally only go on what you tell him. If is no surprise that someone else can often make a fairly good suggestion in many cases to deal with a lot of problems.

No, that's not placebo, although you could argue that it was if it was just the remedy.  The thing that helped was the advise about diet and lifestyle.  The GP had exactly the same history presented, and his only solution was biochemical, i.e. powerful stomach acid suppressants.

Drew_TNBD

MrBump said:

quarky said:

MrBump said:

<girds loins in preparation for the abuse and vitriol reserved for those disagreeing with the prevailing theory in this room>

No disagreement from me. It isn't that homeopathy doesn't work, it just works as a placebo at best. And a stopped clock is right twice a day. You doctor was wrong, your quack was right with the diet changes. I don't think that is so unusual. A doctor can generally only go on what you tell him. If is no surprise that someone else can often make a fairly good suggestion in many cases to deal with a lot of problems.

No, that's not placebo, although you could argue that it was if it was just the remedy.  The thing that helped was the advise about diet and lifestyle.

Right, but you could've got that from Women's Own or OK Weekly. You didn't need homeopathy for it.

I'll checkout that book you recommended btw.

MrBump

^ that's true, but also the point.  I'd never argue that modern medicine pisses all over alternative therapies.  But in this instance the better - and genuinely homeopathic - outcome came from homeopathy...

quarky

MrBump said:

No, that's not placebo, although you could argue that it was if it was just the remedy.  The thing that helped was the advise about diet and lifestyle.  The GP had exactly the same history presented, and his only solution was biochemical, i.e. powerful stomach acid suppressants.

Personally, I don't reel off exactly the same script verbatim to everyone, so if I discussed something (ie, headaches) with my wife or a friend, or someone at work, all those will be different from my description to a doctor. It has to be, unless it is a one-way conversation. So no two people are going to get exactly the same information. I know plenty of doctors who advise about diet, so nothing new or extraordinary there. Just because your doctor didn't in that situation and the quack did, doesn't mean that no doctor ever would.

Homeopathy has not been shown to be any better than a placebo. Many attempts have been made, but it just isn't any better. Glad whatever worked for you worked for you though.

MrBump

Drew_fx said:

I'll checkout that book you recommended btw.

The book has a section on Eipgenetics, which I'd never heard of before, but sounds absolutely fascinating - science fiction, but apparently a genuine and scary area of research.

menamestom

A lot of the success of homeopathy is really just regression to the mean.  A cold gets better in 5 days but if you had a cold and took Echinacea it would get better in 5 days because of the Echinacea.  Things generally get better on their own and people generally buy homeopathic things at the trough of the ailment, which is only going to get better.

This guy has some good articles.  He's an ex homeopath that was suspended for not agreeing to a report being published as he could no longer go against his scientific thoughts.  He was suspended by the office of Prince Charles I believe, hence me bringing the subject of conspiracies.

http://edzardernst.com/

menamestom

MrBump said:

quarky said:

MrBump said:

<girds loins in preparation for the abuse and vitriol reserved for those disagreeing with the prevailing theory in this room>

No disagreement from me. It isn't that homeopathy doesn't work, it just works as a placebo at best. And a stopped clock is right twice a day. You doctor was wrong, your quack was right with the diet changes. I don't think that is so unusual. A doctor can generally only go on what you tell him. If is no surprise that someone else can often make a fairly good suggestion in many cases to deal with a lot of problems.

No, that's not placebo, although you could argue that it was if it was just the remedy.  The thing that helped was the advise about diet and lifestyle.  The GP had exactly the same history presented, and his only solution was biochemical, i.e. powerful stomach acid suppressants.

To be fair, there's quite a bit of advise on the NHS website that relates to stomach acid and diet, GP's have a very short amount of time and NHS overall advise is look at your diet first then see a doctor.  He should have brought diet up however, but I think limited amount of time does prevent this personal approach. 

My own anecdotal experience of the homeopathic experience was similar to yours in that they spent a good amount of time doing the 'holistic' get to really know the patient thing.  After an hour and about £60 later I'd had some very general advise that is good for many things but unfortunately presenting them with something without an easy fix (Asthma) it was quite clear they couldn't do anything measurable for it.  In fact after all the very general advise their conclusion was to get very good results I should have come as a child (I was early twenties at the time).

hungrymark

ICBM;1069509" said:

I read somewhere recently that if you take a glass of water at random from anywhere on Earth, on average it contains at least one water molecule which passed through a dinosaur. How this strange piece of information was calculated I don't know, but I don't find it unbelievable given how many dinosaurs there were and how long they were around.

By the same token it probably means that it's a near certainty that every glass of water contains a water molecule which has passed through an insect, since there are more of them and they've been around even longer.

Which explains why we're all afraid of spiders.

Every glass of water you drink contains molecules that Leonardo da Vinci passed in his piss. I've seen the proof but couldn't explain it, can't remember.

hungrymark

I don't have a problem with homeopathy per se (whatever you want to spend your money on), but I have a problem with it when its practitioners recommend the exclusion of conventional medicine.

My mum has a homeopath friend who recommends not vaccinating, excluding conventional medicine, and who once spent three months in hospital after her kidneys shut down because she tried to self-medicate a serious water infection.

Sambostar

What the fuck is wrong with homosexuality,  Jesus Christ you people are such bigots.

viz

Homeopathy.

mike_l

viz said:

Homeopathy.

Isn't that what gay axe-murderers practise?

/old joke/

quarky

  Sambostar said:

What the fuck is wrong with homosexuality,  Jesus Christ you people are such bigots.

Easy mistake to make, they both share knocking and leather I guess.

menamestom

Just been sat up in the garden, watching the contrails from the planes.  Yes, they do spread out and linger.  I guess the conspiracy argument is that this is not coming from the engine but some clandestine spraying points, because contrails from the engines disperse.  The question therefore why would they, (the conspirators), not just disperse the chemicals in a solution with a strong anti freeze in it? I'm not a chemist, but I would have thought it possible to release liquids or gases that are not visible, even at -60.  Of course the answer is it's all a load of bollocks, but if anybody is a chemist that might know about these things you could advise?

UnclePsychosis

hungrymark said:

ICBM;1069509" said:

I read somewhere recently that if you take a glass of water at random from anywhere on Earth, on average it contains at least one water molecule which passed through a dinosaur. How this strange piece of information was calculated I don't know, but I don't find it unbelievable given how many dinosaurs there were and how long they were around.

By the same token it probably means that it's a near certainty that every glass of water contains a water molecule which has passed through an insect, since there are more of them and they've been around even longer.

Which explains why we're all afraid of spiders.

Every glass of water you drink contains molecules that Leonardo da Vinci passed in his piss. I've seen the proof but couldn't explain it, can't remember.

You estimate the number of molecules in his piss and then approximate the volume of water on earth. If you assume that his piss-molecules are evenly distributed (a reasonable assumption) then you have a "number of piss molecules per litre of water on earth" number. If you do the calculations then the probability of there being one inside your glass of water is exceedingly high.

UnclePsychosis

Here's a link to the Jesus Breath calculation:

http://rsloan.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/03/2768580-the-odds-that-youll-breathe-a-single-molecule-of-air-that-once-traveled-through-the-lungs-of-jesus

I haven't checked it but it looks about right.

digitalscream

MrBump said:

^ that's true, but also the point.  I'd never argue that modern medicine pisses all over alternative therapies.  But in this instance the better - and genuinely homeopathic - outcome came from homeopathy...

From the sounds of it, the solution (hah...) was actually nothing to do with homeopathy at all.

MrBump

digitalscream said:

MrBump said:

^ that's true, but also the point.  I'd never argue that modern medicine pisses all over alternative therapies.  But in this instance the better - and genuinely homeopathic - outcome came from homeopathy...

From the sounds of it, the solution (hah...) was actually nothing to do with homeopathy at all.

No, it was homeopathy - given that homeopathy is a holistic therapy, yadda, yadda, treat the person etc.  It's not just the dilution, that everyone (rightly) gets worked up over.