EU Referendum Vote - Poll

littlegreenman

Fretwired said:

People have a right to say 'fuck it' I don't won't to vote.

True, they currently do. But I do think that in doing so they forfeit any right to whinge about what comes next if they are that apathetic. It's not like a political election though, it's a simple in or out, no nuances.

Fretwired said:

I do wonder why more voters aren't more suspicious that all the people telling us that remain is the best open are multi millionaires with a vested interest. The moment David Cameron, Osborne and all their banker and business chums come on TV saying 'remain is the only option' I feel like we're being conned again. Keep the status quo, keep the gravy train for the rich .. maybe it's time for a change. Vote out and create a more egalitarian society. The EU only promotes elites and throws us plebs a few bones from the top table like cheap flights and mobile phone calls.

The Leave lot are equally guilty of vested interests though aren't they? Boris, IDS and co. are hardly champions of the common people. Leave and let the free market look after us seems to be a tad optimistic to me. Not sure us plebs would be getting anything other than a few bones either way.

3 weeks to go and I'm still conflicted.

Mkjackary

littlegreenman;1089979" said:

Mkjackary said:

littlegreenman;1089832" said:I would have liked voting to have been compulsory on this one.

Then people who didn't know (and wouldn't ha be bothered voting) would vote 'in' because they would rather something they know than something they don't.

That would be unfair. Which is exactly why I'm surprised Cameron didn't go for it.





It would be representative of the wishes of the whole eligible voting population, it would be "democratic".

No, the people who don't care and can't be bothered to research, and get off their arses and vote should not be able to decide what happens to the country.

It wouldn't be representative of the wishes of the population because the people who wouldn't vote don't know what they want and don't know enough information to make a reasoned decision. IMO

littlegreenman

Mkjackary said:

littlegreenman;1089979" said:

Mkjackary said:

littlegreenman;1089832" said:I would have liked voting to have been compulsory on this one.

Then people who didn't know (and wouldn't ha be bothered voting) would vote 'in' because they would rather something they know than something they don't.

That would be unfair. Which is exactly why I'm surprised Cameron didn't go for it.





It would be representative of the wishes of the whole eligible voting population, it would be "democratic".

No, the people who don't care and can't be bothered to research, and get off their arses and vote should not be able to decide what happens to the country.

It wouldn't be representative of the wishes of the population because the people who wouldn't vote don't know what they want and don't know enough information to make a reasoned decision. IMO

That's quite an assumption to make.

The opinion of every adult in the land is equally valid on this issue. It is all of our country, not just your educated. Or are you suggesting that we go back to only allowing the vote for an elite minority as it seems to be that is what you are.

Just how exactly would you decide who should be allowed to vote on this issue then? How much research should they have to have proven to have done to satisfy your criteria?

Chalky

Mkjackary;1090089" said:

[quote="littlegreenman;1089979"]Mkjackary said:

littlegreenman;1089832" said:I would have liked voting to have been compulsory on this one.

Then people who didn't know (and wouldn't ha be bothered voting) would vote 'in' because they would rather something they know than something they don't.

That would be unfair. Which is exactly why I'm surprised Cameron didn't go for it.





It would be representative of the wishes of the whole eligible voting population, it would be "democratic".

No, the people who don't care and can't be bothered to research, and get off their arses and vote should not be able to decide what happens to the country.

It wouldn't be representative of the wishes of the population because the people who wouldn't vote don't know what they want and don't know enough information to make a reasoned decision. IMO[/quote]

Well you've just cast huge doubt on the quality of your own judgement so no doubt you will recuse yourself from voting... )

Sporky

Fortheloveofguitar said:

Agreed but it's hard for the government to invest more money when they're paying out such huge sums of cash in benefits to the majority that are here for the free handouts

Citation needed.

Sporky

Fretwired said:

I do wonder why more voters aren't more suspicious that all the people telling us that remain is the best open are multi millionaires with a vested interest.

All the people telling us that leave is the best option went to school with them and have similar, if opposed, vested interests.

Phil_aka_Pip

I think only the people who would vote LEAVE should be allowed to vote The rest should get a one way ticket across the North Sea

Sporky

I don't think either side is making a convincing argument.

And I am inherently correct, beyond dispute - neither side has convinced me. It's just bickering and speculation.

Mkjackary

Chalky;1090136" said:

[quote="Mkjackary;1090089"][quote="littlegreenman;1089979"]Mkjackary said:

littlegreenman;1089832" said:I would have liked voting to have been compulsory on this one.

Then people who didn't know (and wouldn't ha be bothered voting) would vote 'in' because they would rather something they know than something they don't.

That would be unfair. Which is exactly why I'm surprised Cameron didn't go for it.





It would be representative of the wishes of the whole eligible voting population, it would be "democratic".

No, the people who don't care and can't be bothered to research, and get off their arses and vote should not be able to decide what happens to the country.

It wouldn't be representative of the wishes of the population because the people who wouldn't vote don't know what they want and don't know enough information to make a reasoned decision. IMO[/quote]

Well you've just cast huge doubt on the quality of your own judgement so no doubt you will recuse yourself from voting... )[/quote]

No I completely agree. I don't feel comfortable making a decision now, and if I still felt like this on the voting day I wouldn't vote.

But the difference is I will send the time between now and the referendum looking at the arguments either side has to offer and looking at any facts/info I can find to help me make the best decision I can.

Sambostar

Who has the right to judge who or what anyone else can vote for?  Jesus Christ, it's like the left wing mafia in here.  Think about what you are saying and your presumptions and if your own interests aren't just the bottom line despite your fancy spiel?

Who is this notional person who just rocks up to vote because they have to?  Who?  Name them, where do they live?

Chalky

@Mkjackary - in this case, maximum facts/info does not equal best decision.

littlegreenman

Mkjackary said:

No I completely agree. I don't feel comfortable making a decision now, and if I still felt like this on the voting day I wouldn't vote.

But the difference is I will send the time between now and the referendum looking at the arguments either side has to offer and looking at any facts/info I can find to help me make the best decision I can.

Why not? If the info available doesn't sway you one way or the other then vote with your gut feeling. Take that risk, don't allow those who are sure about their choice to make the decision for you how the rest of your life will potentially be governed.

Even flipping a coin is better than staying home out of fear that you might have made the wrong choice, and could well haunt you for many years to come.

Fortheloveofguitar

Sporky;1090179" said:

Fortheloveofguitar said:



Agreed but it's hard for the government to invest more money when they're paying out such huge sums of cash in benefits to the majority that are here for the free handouts





Citation needed.

Here

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06955/SN06955.pdf

Sporky

So from a quick glance, a higher proportion of immigrants work than do UK born people.

And most immigrants are here for work, not handouts.

Maybe you should read the report yourself. )

Sambostar

The thing is, with the low wage and tax credits, they only break even with their tax contributions.  But are tax contributions a fair way to judge a society?  Personally I'd export the native slackers and import the ones who want work or create enterprise if it were up to me.  But the lefties will defend benefits and the NHS to the hilt, so we are stuck, so are forced to vote out.  In my world, everyone would be self employed.

Sporky

Sambostar said:

In my world, everyone would be self employed.

I don't think that'd be efficient.

Companies are good abstraction layers; I'm a lot more productive when I can concentrate on the things I'm good at.

Fortheloveofguitar

Sporky;1090359" said:

So from a quick glance, a higher proportion of immigrants work than do UK born people.



And most immigrants are here for work, not handouts.



Maybe you should read the report yourself. )

Rather than a quick glance maybe read the findings in full


''In November 2015 the Government published estimates stating that at March 2013 “between 37 per cent and 45 per cent of the EEA nationals (excluding students) who were resident in the UK having arrived in the preceding 4 years were in households claiming either an in-work or out- of-work benefit or tax credit”. :-?

Rocker

Fretwired said:

People have a right to say 'fuck it' I don't won't to vote.

I do wonder why more voters aren't more suspicious that all the people telling us that remain is the best open are multi millionaires with a vested interest. The moment David Cameron, Osborne and all their banker and business chums come on TV saying 'remain is the only option' I feel like we're being conned again. Keep the status quo, keep the gravy train for the rich .. maybe it's time for a change. Vote out and create a more egalitarian society. The EU only promotes elites and throws us plebs a few bones from the top table like cheap flights and mobile phone calls.

Sadly, it does not work like that.  Communism is at its base level, completely egalitarian.  The problem is that it is people who have to administer society and make the changes necessary.  Which never happens.  How often have you heard newly elected Governments say that it is time for a new style of Government.  Sadly the same style is used, result no change.

Sporky

And maybe read that yourself. Noting, for instance, that those aren't reliable figures, but are "estimates", and aren't connected to individuals but are "in households".

In fact, if you'd read it, you'd surely have noticed the preceding paragraph:

"No conclusive figure for the proportion of EU migrants who claim benefits in their first four years of residency in the UK is available."

So the actual verifiable stuff is against you, and only the vague assumptions on your favour. But good work on falling for the "a quick glance" trap.

Sporky

Fortheloveofguitar said:

blah

I just remembered - you did a similar statistics smoke & mirrors thing about Andertons - citing their 20 Trustpilot reviews and ignoring the 25,000 Feefo reviews and nearly 4,000 Google Shops reviews.

There's a really good Coursera course on this sort of thing - you should give it a look as it'll help you draw more valid conclusions from the available data.