EU Referendum Vote - Poll

holnrew

quarky said:

UnclePsychosis said:

"the fundamentalist left" - headed up by Gideon Osborne and David Cameron :-D

I don't think they are calling for open borders are they?

For the remain voters, knowing what you know now about the EU, if we were out, would you honestly vote to join?

That's not the question being asked.

Fretwired

Sporky said:

ToneControl said:

Trouble is with PR - you get some weird parties into parliament, UKIP would have 13% of the MPs - more than 80 MPs

There is the question of whether people would still vote (or would still vote in the same numbers) for fringe parties under some sort of alternative to FPTP.

Also the question of whether UKIP ought to have more MPs; the aim, after all, is for Parliament to represent the views of the country.

I agree - if people vote for the Greens or UKIP why shouldn't they have a proportion of the seats? It would make politics interesting. The Germans seem to manage with coalition governments.

Cirrus

Drew_fx;1121712" said:

I do not want to see just ANYONE coming to the UK. And that doesn't mean I want these people to live in hovels and to suffer. That really is bloody offensive and utterly idiotic of you to infer such an idea. It's moronic and borderline retarded.

I want them to make THEIR home countries better, as good or better than what we've done with ours! I want them to grow their economies, I want them to educate their children, I want them to elect decent politicians who work for the will of the people.

I want to see warlords deposed. I want to see more Arab springs. I want to see enlightenment values spread throughout the world, and I want censorship and persecution to be a thing of the past.

You don't improve the world by filling up a few small places on it and leaving the rest to rot.

You know, I wrote what I wrote for my own friends and followers on Facebook as a talking point, and as I copied it in here and clicked post I suddenly thought "oh shit, Drew's going to be all over this". And it didn't take you long. )

First of all let me point out that I'm talking in generalities here, this isn't aimed at anyone in particular. If I say I think people are racist, for example, that doesn't mean "all people everywhere are racist, including you". It means "people can tend towards acts that I'd consider racist, though any one individual of course has complex motives, experiences and beliefs that inform their actions". I wish it didn't need to be said, but there we are.

Anyway.

I know that people who are concerned about immigration are sick to the back teeth of being branded as racists etc, because immigration is a real concern felt keenly by a large sector of society. However, I feel that it's a concern which is rooted at a primal level on how we as humans like to feel like we belong to a particular homogeneous society. At some fundamental level, when we meet someone who is not like us we often enjoy meeting them, for a little while. As long as they're going to go away. This seems to be a pattern that's obeyed around the world from a village in the Hindu Kush to a suburban street in Liverpool, it's human nature.

I don't recall ever seeing a scientific study that's shown that immigration is a problem. Regularly I see studies that show immigration is a benefit to the economy. I believe that the problems that are often ascribed to immigration are in fact problems in other areas; education and civic planning to manage integration without creating ghettos/ slums/ pockets of increased crime and social deprivation. To my mind, focusing on the fact of immigration itself as the solution to those problems is the easy way out.

All the problems of crime and backward societal problems like arranged marriages, terrible applications of sharia law, subjugation of women - the kind of stuff that we quite rightly IMO think is wrong - and the continuation of ethnic and tribal disputes amongst immigrants can be solved much more thoroughly through education and immersion in a more open society. Even then, it takes time. Maybe generations. But that's just the price for laying the groundwork for a better world.

If, instead, we rail against immigrants and pursue more closed borders, and a more closed society, we're not solving the problem which is a human problem. We never give those people a chance to live a better life and more importantly to learn what a better life looks like.

Personally, I'm the antithesis of a patriot. I don't think that the fact I was born in a town in Scotland gives me any more right to the dirt outside my window, to Ben Nevis or the Lake District or Buckingham Palace, to the rule of law, the protection of the armed forces etc than someone who happened to be born outside a village near Aleppo. We're both humans who were dumped out of our mothers, somewhere on the earth.

I found it interesting that you wrote "I want them to make THEIR home countries better, as good or better than what we've done with ours! I want them to grow their economies, I want them to educate their children, I want them to elect decent politicians who work for the will of the people."

I know it can be seen in a very hand wringing, apologist light, but we did make our country good off the backs of other countries. Our economic and political might came about by creating a navy so powerful that no other nation on earth could stand in our way. Then we commercialised the various areas of the globe and sold the products of the indigenous peoples, and sometimes the indigenous peoples themselves, in trade networks that were created solely to make us rich at the expense of the less developed civilisations that we subsumed. In places like Africa which were less developed, we destroyed what civilisation there was and carried on twisting the knife right through the 20th Century - look at our meddling in Uganda with our backing of first Milton Obote then Idi Amin. Look at the Dutch colony that eventually enforced Apartheid.

We created the very concept of Afghanistan in a mountainous, tribal region as a buffer state in the great game with the Russian Empire to prevent their expansion southwards to our own interests in Persia, and the British Indian Empire. We armed and trained the Taliban in the 1980s to fight the USSR. From the British Mandate in Palastine we created a situation where still 70 years later innocent Arabs and Jews are stabbed to death in the street. We aided in the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, helping shape the Turkey that today Leave are using as fearsome weapon in the fight against the EU.

We, that is the UK as a concept, as an institution, majorly shaped the world as it is today and *did* have a hand in many of the economic imbalances that exist. Should I feel guilty about it? Fuck no. and neither should you. But if we're going to evoke concepts like sovereignty and border controls, we HAVE to acknowledge the role of the nation we believe we're defending in creating a situation were economic migration and flows of refugees are such a major issue in the world today. And if the state has a responsibility to us, it has a responsibility to them too.

"I want to see warlords deposed. I want to see more Arab springs. I want to see enlightenment values spread throughout the world, and I want censorship and persecution to be a thing of the past."

Me too, Drew. And I think the quickest and best way we can do that is by making the world an open, enlightened place by leading as a shining example. I know it's idealistic, and I know i'm describing some kind of Utopian ideal, but you may as well shoot for the stars, eh? 

B-)

Cirrus

Bidley;1121736" said: Can I just say, if you're trying to apply that to me because I'm voting leave, then I find that incredibly offensive and short-sighted. 

I don't know you at all, so I have no idea why you're voting leave. I wouldn't presume to judge your motives. 

Fretwired;1121725" said: All Leave has asked for is for control - I think it will come in some form as other EU countries are asking for it. Will voting out stop immigration? No. Do we need immigrants? Yes. Has our country been enriched by them? Yes. I say this as someone who has just enjoyed a curry. However you might want to go to the EU and ask why they impose tariffs and unfair trade barriers on third world countries. The EU should be promoting trade and helping poorer countries develop their international trade and wealth. http://capx.co/how-the-eu-starves-africa-into-submission/ ;

I don't think I'd disagree with anything you've said there. I suppose the conclusion I've came to is that the EU could be a fantastic force for good in transforming those deprived areas, and that I'm perfectly happy for my country to subsidise a poorer one. I think that when I go to the EU and ask why they impose tariffs and unfair trade barriers on third world countries, they're more likely to be influenced by my opinions if I'm in the EU.

chillidoggy

Just been and done mine.

Long queue of the greys, as expected. I was however very disappointed there were no exit-pollsters outside. Maybe they felt it was a waste of time in Margate as it's a done deal.

Fortheloveofguitar

chillidoggy;1122003" said:

Just been and done mine.Long queue of the greys, as expected. I was however very disappointed there were no exit-pollsters outside. Maybe they felt it was a waste of time in Margate as it's a done deal.

They can't conduct exit polls for the referendum as they have to have previous results to work on and this hasn't happened for 40 years

chillidoggy

Fortheloveofguitar said:

chillidoggy;1122003" said:

Just been and done mine.Long queue of the greys, as expected. I was however very disappointed there were no exit-pollsters outside. Maybe they felt it was a waste of time in Margate as it's a done deal.

They can't conduct exit polls for the referendum as they have to have previous results to work on and this hasn't happened for 40 years

OK ta.

Fretwired

Fortheloveofguitar said:

chillidoggy;1122003" said:

Just been and done mine.Long queue of the greys, as expected. I was however very disappointed there were no exit-pollsters outside. Maybe they felt it was a waste of time in Margate as it's a done deal.

They can't conduct exit polls for the referendum as they have to have previous results to work on and this hasn't happened for 40 years

They are banned - it is an offence to collect and publish data during the vote.

FarleyUK

Annoys me when you still have people outside the polling stations telling you to vote one way or another.

What do they think will happen? I'll suddenly have a Eureka moment and realise that all my research, thoughts etc. about which way to vote were wrong, and suddenly understand this random person is correct after all, just because they told me to vote a certain way?

Wankers. Utter, utter wankers.

quarky

holnrew said:

quarky said:

UnclePsychosis said:

"the fundamentalist left" - headed up by Gideon Osborne and David Cameron :-D

I don't think they are calling for open borders are they?

For the remain voters, knowing what you know now about the EU, if we were out, would you honestly vote to join?

That's not the question being asked.

I just asked it. I am guess that it is "no" though

ToneControl

Sporky said:

ToneControl said:

Trouble is with PR - you get some weird parties into parliament, UKIP would have 13% of the MPs - more than 80 MPs

There is the question of whether people would still vote (or would still vote in the same numbers) for fringe parties under some sort of alternative to FPTP.

Also the question of whether UKIP ought to have more MPs; the aim, after all, is for Parliament to represent the views of the country.

I think in the countries with PR, the fringe parties do indeed get seats

As you say though, it is more democratic that FPTP

ToneControl

chillidoggy said:

Just been and done mine.

Long queue of the greys, as expected. I was however very disappointed there were no exit-pollsters outside. Maybe they felt it was a waste of time in Margate as it's a done deal.

I thought the hedge funds were running their own private ones? @evilmags

koneguitarist

ICBM;1121775" said:

koneguitarist said:Still voting out for following reasons only.I want someone that was elected by a majority in UK for to be in charge of the country.



In that case you need electoral reform first, since our governments are almost never elected by a majority.




Bidley said:Which box do I cross tomorrow to make all that happen?

Rhetorical question...





Remain.

Although it has no direct bearing, just look at the type of politicians who support leaving, and ask yourself whether allowing them to take over - as they will, if we vote leave - is more likely to result in electoral reform, or less.

At least if it was PR I would still be voting them in or out, in other words having my right to vote exercised.
Isn't that important?

ToneControl

Fretwired said:

Fortheloveofguitar said:

chillidoggy;1122003" said:

Just been and done mine.Long queue of the greys, as expected. I was however very disappointed there were no exit-pollsters outside. Maybe they felt it was a waste of time in Margate as it's a done deal.

They can't conduct exit polls for the referendum as they have to have previous results to work on and this hasn't happened for 40 years

They are banned - it is an offence to collect and publish data during the vote.

just to publish I thought

UnclePsychosis

Fretwired said:

Sporky said:

ToneControl said:

Trouble is with PR - you get some weird parties into parliament, UKIP would have 13% of the MPs - more than 80 MPs

There is the question of whether people would still vote (or would still vote in the same numbers) for fringe parties under some sort of alternative to FPTP.

Also the question of whether UKIP ought to have more MPs; the aim, after all, is for Parliament to represent the views of the country.

I agree - if people vote for the Greens or UKIP why shouldn't they have a proportion of the seats? It would make politics interesting. The Germans seem to manage with coalition governments.

Coalitions are miles better than our current system of working that seems to just encourage tribalism and "us against them" politics. When political parties have to work together they have to move away from the "adopt a position just to be seen to be different" stance and they instead offer more constructive criticism and compromise based on what it is they actually believe.

I desperately believe the UK needs more representative democracy. The current Westminster system is almost literally tearing the country apart---45% of Scottish voters are so disillusioned with their lack of influence on UK matters that they want to leave completely and 11m people voted UKIP and got almost nothing in return.

ToneControl

Cirrus said:

Drew_fx;1121712" said

Anyway.

I know that people who are concerned about immigration are sick to the back teeth of being branded as racists etc, because immigration is a real concern felt keenly by a large sector of society. However, I feel that it's a concern which is rooted at a primal level on how we as humans like to feel like we belong to a particular homogeneous society. At some fundamental level, when we meet someone who is not like us we often enjoy meeting them, for a little while. As long as they're going to go away. This seems to be a pattern that's obeyed around the world from a village in the Hindu Kush to a suburban street in Liverpool, it's human nature.

I don't recall ever seeing a scientific study that's shown that immigration is a problem. Regularly I see studies that show immigration is a benefit to the economy. I believe that the problems that are often ascribed to immigration are in fact problems in other areas; education and civic planning to manage integration without creating ghettos/ slums/ pockets of increased crime and social deprivation. To my mind, focusing on the fact of immigration itself as the solution to those problems is the easy way out.

All the problems of crime and backward societal problems like arranged marriages, terrible applications of sharia law, subjugation of women - the kind of stuff that we quite rightly IMO think is wrong - and the continuation of ethnic and tribal disputes amongst immigrants can be solved much more thoroughly through education and immersion in a more open society. Even then, it takes time. Maybe generations. But that's just the price for laying the groundwork for a better world.

If, instead, we rail against immigrants and pursue more closed borders, and a more closed society, we're not solving the problem which is a human problem. We never give those people a chance to live a better life and more importantly to learn what a better life looks like.

Personally, I'm the antithesis of a patriot. I don't think that the fact I was born in a town in Scotland gives me any more right to the dirt outside my window, to Ben Nevis or the Lake District or Buckingham Palace, to the rule of law, the protection of the armed forces etc than someone who happened to be born outside a village near Aleppo. We're both humans who were dumped out of our mothers, somewhere on the earth.

I found it interesting that you wrote "I want them to make THEIR home countries better, as good or better than what we've done with ours! I want them to grow their economies, I want them to educate their children, I want them to elect decent politicians who work for the will of the people."

I know it can be seen in a very hand wringing, apologist light, but we did make our country good off the backs of other countries. Our economic and political might came about by creating a navy so powerful that no other nation on earth could stand in our way. Then we commercialised the various areas of the globe and sold the products of the indigenous peoples, and sometimes the indigenous peoples themselves, in trade networks that were created solely to make us rich at the expense of the less developed civilisations that we subsumed. In places like Africa which were less developed, we destroyed what civilisation there was and carried on twisting the knife right through the 20th Century - look at our meddling in Uganda with our backing of first Milton Obote then Idi Amin. Look at the Dutch colony that eventually enforced Apartheid.

We created the very concept of Afghanistan in a mountainous, tribal region as a buffer state in the great game with the Russian Empire to prevent their expansion southwards to our own interests in Persia, and the British Indian Empire. We armed and trained the Taliban in the 1980s to fight the USSR. From the British Mandate in Palastine we created a situation where still 70 years later innocent Arabs and Jews are stabbed to death in the street. We aided in the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, helping shape the Turkey that today Leave are using as fearsome weapon in the fight against the EU.

We, that is the UK as a concept, as an institution, majorly shaped the world as it is today and *did* have a hand in many of the economic imbalances that exist. Should I feel guilty about it? Fuck no. and neither should you. But if we're going to evoke concepts like sovereignty and border controls, we HAVE to acknowledge the role of the nation we believe we're defending in creating a situation were economic migration and flows of refugees are such a major issue in the world today. And if the state has a responsibility to us, it has a responsibility to them too.

"I want to see warlords deposed. I want to see more Arab springs. I want to see enlightenment values spread throughout the world, and I want censorship and persecution to be a thing of the past."

Me too, Drew. And I think the quickest and best way we can do that is by making the world an open, enlightened place by leading as a shining example. I know it's idealistic, and I know i'm describing some kind of Utopian ideal, but you may as well shoot for the stars, eh? 

B-)

Good stuff, I agree with most this, very similar to the rationale I give for people being uncomfortable with "other" groups - people are naturally tribal. The studies I've seen measure GDP, and don't explore wages for lower social classes. Also I haven't seen any measurement of how alienated existing residents feel in areas where large scale immigration affects, and what result that has on their quality of life. i.e. does the UK belong to those resident in it, or to the world?

I'd make the point that the alternative to immigration within the EU is for us to pay significant taxes for many years, to subsidize the rapid development of the economies in the economic-basket-case-countries in the Eurozone

holnrew

quarky said:

holnrew said:

quarky said:

UnclePsychosis said:

"the fundamentalist left" - headed up by Gideon Osborne and David Cameron :-D

I don't think they are calling for open borders are they?

For the remain voters, knowing what you know now about the EU, if we were out, would you honestly vote to join?

That's not the question being asked.

I just asked it. I am guess that it is "no" though

Correct 

Bidley

Just went and voted. There was hardly anyone there, although I don't know what time the peak time is for a smallish village like mine. It'll hopefully be rammed after 6pm.

hugbot

Fretwired said:

Fortheloveofguitar said:

chillidoggy;1122003" said:

Just been and done mine.Long queue of the greys, as expected. I was however very disappointed there were no exit-pollsters outside. Maybe they felt it was a waste of time in Margate as it's a done deal.

They can't conduct exit polls for the referendum as they have to have previous results to work on and this hasn't happened for 40 years

They are banned - it is an offence to collect and publish data during the vote.

Publish but not collect. Come 10 PM there will likely be a few independant polls released.

Fretwired

hugbot said:

Fretwired said:

Fortheloveofguitar said:

chillidoggy;1122003" said:

Just been and done mine.Long queue of the greys, as expected. I was however very disappointed there were no exit-pollsters outside. Maybe they felt it was a waste of time in Margate as it's a done deal.

They can't conduct exit polls for the referendum as they have to have previous results to work on and this hasn't happened for 40 years

They are banned - it is an offence to collect and publish data during the vote.

Publish but not collect. Come 10 PM there will likely be a few independant polls released.

Said on the radio that pollsters were banned from polling stations. I guess they can poll via phone and the internet and in town centres. There is usually a team of them at my voting centre - there wasn't one.