EU Referendum Vote - Poll

Sporky

Mkjackary said:

By having our own trade deals we can push for the things that matter to us, not the things that matter to germany, france, poland, etc.

I accept that, but at the same time UK deals will have less weight - our economy is smaller than the EU's, which is a fundamental point - and most of our current deals involve granting access to the single market via the UK. Leaving the EU would mean giving up our greatest trading asset (as measured by our current trade deals).

ToneControl

Sporky said:

Mkjackary said:

By having our own trade deals we can push for the things that matter to us, not the things that matter to germany, france, poland, etc.

I accept that, but at the same time UK deals will have less weight - our economy is smaller than the EU's, which is a fundamental point - and most of our current deals involve granting access to the single market via the UK. Leaving the EU would mean giving up our greatest trading asset (as measured by our current trade deals).

what current trade deals?

Our current trade deals through the EU are shite

Norway and Switzerland have better trade deals than the EU

Fretwired

Sporky said:

Mkjackary said:

By having our own trade deals we can push for the things that matter to us, not the things that matter to germany, france, poland, etc.

I accept that, but at the same time UK deals will have less weight - our economy is smaller than the EU's, which is a fundamental point - and most of our current deals involve granting access to the single market via the UK. Leaving the EU would mean giving up our greatest trading asset (as measured by our current trade deals).

But let's take a deal with Canada. The EU is a big market. Canada is a small market. How does Canada make sure it's not swamped with EU products? The EU will protect it's farmers making Canadian wheat more expensive - the UK would import Canadian wheat as we can't grow enough. Sometimes being smaller has its advantages. The same would be true with Australia with regards to lamb and wine and many other countries. This is part of the reason countries like France will always want to protect their farmers, defence industry and so forth, and why the EU takes an age to get anywhere.

ToneControl

Fretwired said:

Sporky said:

Mkjackary said:

By having our own trade deals we can push for the things that matter to us, not the things that matter to germany, france, poland, etc.

I accept that, but at the same time UK deals will have less weight - our economy is smaller than the EU's, which is a fundamental point - and most of our current deals involve granting access to the single market via the UK. Leaving the EU would mean giving up our greatest trading asset (as measured by our current trade deals).

But let's take a deal with Canada. The EU is a big market. Canada is a small market. How does Canada make sure it's not swamped with EU products? The EU will protect it's farmers making Canadian wheat more expensive - the UK would import Canadian wheat as we can't grow enough. Sometimes being smaller has its advantages. The same would be true with Australia with regards to lamb and wine and many other countries. This is part of the reason countries like the will always want to protect their farmers, defence industry and so forth. This is one reason the EU takes an age to get anywhere.

it's also a perfect illustration of why any EU law or decision may be completely unhelpful to the UK

Emp_Fab

Well, I did it.  Mrs Fab and I were both undecided, but eventually both opted for leave.  We both went to work, she voted in the day, I voted on my way home.  When I get in, I discover she'd voted remain.  So our votes cancel each other out.  All that thinking and research and it all comes to nought because of Mrs Fickle-pants.  :x

ToneControl

Emp_Fab said:

Well, I did it.  Mrs Fab and I were both undecided, but eventually both opted for leave.  We both went to work, she voted in the day, I voted on my way home.  When I get in, I discover she'd voted remain.  So our votes cancel each other out.  All that thinking and research and it all comes to nought because of Mrs Fickle-pants.  :x

that's the trouble with democracy

ToneControl

Here's what the EU has done for Greece

Do you endorse this triumph of social engineering from Brussels?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/greek-women-forced-prostitution-the-6921080

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/young-greek-women-selling-sex-for-the-price-of-a-sandwich-new-study-shows/2015/11/27/c469695e-94d9-11e5-b5e4-279b4501e8a6_story.html

http://www.marieclaire.com/culture/features/a15759/underground-sex-industry-in-greece/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3337243/Teenage-prostitutes-selling-sex-price-sandwich-Greece-s-crippling-recession-pushes-prices-time-low.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/prostitution-the-hidden-cost-of-greeces-economic-crisis/

ThorpyFX

ToneControl said:

Here's what the EU has done for Greece

Do you endorse this triumph of social engineering from Brussels?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/greek-women-forced-prostitution-the-6921080

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/young-greek-women-selling-sex-for-the-price-of-a-sandwich-new-study-shows/2015/11/27/c469695e-94d9-11e5-b5e4-279b4501e8a6_story.html

http://www.marieclaire.com/culture/features/a15759/underground-sex-industry-in-greece/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3337243/Teenage-prostitutes-selling-sex-price-sandwich-Greece-s-crippling-recession-pushes-prices-time-low.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/prostitution-the-hidden-cost-of-greeces-economic-crisis/

this is a tragedy, however the Greek economy did this to itself BEFORE the EU bailed them out. They were not in a fit state to join the single currency so their politicians lied to bolster their numbers and meet the requirement.... (a blind eye was turned by some eu bureaucrats)

Greece also had and still has a terrible attitude towards taxation and a massive private sector based economy..... both things are a recipe for disaster, couple this to the new trend of holiday destinations offering all inclusive ( and killing off small business external to the hotels) and greece's economy was doomed to fail....

 Now the question is, has EU enforced austerity been too harsh and fast for greece. Probably, but what other choice was there? especially if the greek government wasn't ( at the time) willing to increase taxes to close the expenditure/ income deficit.

ICBM

ToneControl said:

Here's what the EU has done for Greece

For balance I both agree with Thorpy and I don't agree with how the EU has handled the Greek crisis - and part of the cause is the way the Euro was created and Greece allowed to join. But I still don't think that means that the EU as a concept is the problem - EU membership has been better for Greece overall rather than worse, if you compare it to how desperately poor it was before it joined, and it's still better off now despite the problems.

The only other choice was that the EU (ie Germany mostly) now simply needs to accept that it's made a serious mistake by allowing Greece to get so far into debt - a lot of which Germany benefitted from, in exports - and write most of it off. And then not repeat the mistake.

However we are not exactly doing brilliantly well at reducing our own debt levels either, so we should be careful about throwing too many stones at either of them...

ToneControl

ThorpyFX said:

ToneControl said:

Here's what the EU has done for Greece

Do you endorse this triumph of social engineering from Brussels?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/greek-women-forced-prostitution-the-6921080

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/young-greek-women-selling-sex-for-the-price-of-a-sandwich-new-study-shows/2015/11/27/c469695e-94d9-11e5-b5e4-279b4501e8a6_story.html

http://www.marieclaire.com/culture/features/a15759/underground-sex-industry-in-greece/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3337243/Teenage-prostitutes-selling-sex-price-sandwich-Greece-s-crippling-recession-pushes-prices-time-low.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/prostitution-the-hidden-cost-of-greeces-economic-crisis/

this is a tragedy, however the Greek economy did this to itself BEFORE the EU bailed them out. They were not in a fit state to join the single currency so their politicians lied to bolster their numbers and meet the requirement.... (a blind eye was turned by some eu bureaucrats)

Greece also had and still has a terrible attitude towards taxation and a massive private sector based economy..... both things are a recipe for disaster, couple this to the new trend of holiday destinations offering all inclusive ( and killing off small business external to the hotels) and greece's economy was doomed to fail....

 Now the question is, has EU enforced austerity been too harsh and fast for greece. Probably, but what other choice was there? especially if the greek government wasn't ( at the time) willing to increase taxes to close the expenditure/ income deficit.

we did the financials in some detail last year

the outcome was that (although, as you say the Greeks were in bad shape before the Euro):

the banks lent the Greek Govt money (bought bonds I think) on the strength that they had the Euro backing them

the Govt promised the people anything they wanted, pensions higher than I could dream of in the UK other than with a top-notch job

plenty of other crazy spending, Greeks living like they are Germans (so I am told) - similar to Ireland, Spain, etc I assume

the country went bankrupt 

the EU paid off the (EU resident) banks with EU money

the EU then set out to screw Greece to provide an example

the arguments I had, mostly with ICBM I think, were whose fault it was

I was quite harsh, and believed that the EU facilitated the problem with the Eurozone, but that the Greeks had been like nutters given a credit card, and were more culpable

I hope the solution is not that the UK bails them out, since they now need more money than anyone sane could believe.

People in normal jobs there have pension promises at 50 or 55 that only company directors here are likely to achieve (in real money terms, not adjusted in any way)

ICBM

ToneControl said:

the arguments I had, mostly with ICBM I think, were whose fault it was

I was quite harsh, and believed that the EU facilitated the problem with the Eurozone, but that the Greeks had been like nutters given a credit card, and were more culpable

The only difference was of emphasis - I thought the Eurozone was more culpable by giving them the credit card in the first place. It wasn't good enough to say that it was private banks which did it, since it should have been patently obvious what would happen.

ThorpyFX

ToneControl said:

ThorpyFX said:

ToneControl said:

Here's what the EU has done for Greece

Do you endorse this triumph of social engineering from Brussels?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/greek-women-forced-prostitution-the-6921080

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/young-greek-women-selling-sex-for-the-price-of-a-sandwich-new-study-shows/2015/11/27/c469695e-94d9-11e5-b5e4-279b4501e8a6_story.html

http://www.marieclaire.com/culture/features/a15759/underground-sex-industry-in-greece/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3337243/Teenage-prostitutes-selling-sex-price-sandwich-Greece-s-crippling-recession-pushes-prices-time-low.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/prostitution-the-hidden-cost-of-greeces-economic-crisis/

this is a tragedy, however the Greek economy did this to itself BEFORE the EU bailed them out. They were not in a fit state to join the single currency so their politicians lied to bolster their numbers and meet the requirement.... (a blind eye was turned by some eu bureaucrats)

Greece also had and still has a terrible attitude towards taxation and a massive private sector based economy..... both things are a recipe for disaster, couple this to the new trend of holiday destinations offering all inclusive ( and killing off small business external to the hotels) and greece's economy was doomed to fail....

 Now the question is, has EU enforced austerity been too harsh and fast for greece. Probably, but what other choice was there? especially if the greek government wasn't ( at the time) willing to increase taxes to close the expenditure/ income deficit.

we did the financials in some detail last year

the outcome was that (although, as you say the Greeks were in bad shape before the Euro):

the banks lent the Greek Govt money (bought bonds I think) on the strength that they had the Euro backing them

the Govt promised the people anything they wanted, pensions higher than I could dream of in the UK other than with a top-notch job

plenty of other crazy spending, Greeks living like they are Germans (so I am told) - similar to Ireland, Spain, etc I assume

the country went bankrupt 

the EU paid off the (EU resident) banks with EU money

the EU then set out to screw Greece to provide an example

the arguments I had, mostly with ICBM I think, were whose fault it was

I was quite harsh, and believed that the EU facilitated the problem with the Eurozone, but that the Greeks had been like nutters given a credit card, and were more culpable

I hope the solution is not that the UK bails them out, since they now need more money than anyone sane could believe.

People in normal jobs there have pension promises at 50 or 55 that only company directors here are likely to achieve (in real money terms, not adjusted in any way)

And i agree with most of the above. The issue here is that the banks should not have been bailed out. this has been the failure across the western world. (except iceland) the bankers who gambled and lost should have been prosecuted and imprisoned. the standard working guy should not have been penalised for these monumental errors. This though is not an EU problem.... this is a capitalism problem and shows how skewed the balance of power is in our economies. 

ToneControl

yes, the bankers should have felt the pain more than the citizens

ICBM

ToneControl said:

yes, the bankers should have felt the pain more than the citizens

The big problem - which of course the bankers know full well - is that you can't just let the banks go bust, because it causes such a big knock-on effect for the rest of the economy that the citizens will suffer at least as much. They have become both too powerful and too indispensible to be allowed to fail completely… so we privatise the profits and nationalise the losses.

ICBM

… and it's now over.

Just the counting to go.

ThorpyFX

ICBM said:

ToneControl said:

yes, the bankers should have felt the pain more than the citizens

The big problem - which of course the bankers know full well - is that you can't just let the banks go bust, because it causes such a big knock-on effect for the rest of the economy that the citizens will suffer at least as much. They have become both too powerful and too indispensible to be allowed to fail completely… so we privatise the profits and nationalise the losses.

agreed..... to a point. it worked in iceland to make examples of them. the answer if you can't let the banks fail is to levy huge prison tariffs on them if they are caught doing illegal things that cause such a bust. in fact, lets call the crime treason.

Fortheloveofguitar

Hoping for some big shocks tonight

koneguitarist

So we have a country that's broke, wanting to join EU, banks and EU ministers turn a blind eye on issues and it all turns to shit, but yet people want to remain with this? Even though no one knows what the state of the EU is, as they wont show the accounts?

Maybe I'll try the same tactics with my tax returns and say no you can't see them! 

littlegreenman

koneguitarist said:

So we have a company that's broke, wanting to join EU, banks and EU ministers turn a blind eye on issues and it all turns to shit, but yet people want to remain with this? Even though no one knows what the state of the EU is, as they wont show the accounts?

Maybe I'll try the same tactics with my tax returns and say no you can't see them! 

It's working well for Donald Trump so far

littlegreenman

ICBM said:

… and it's now over.

Just the counting to go.

Whichever way it goes, the sky will not fall in the morning, and the sun will still rise.

Only time will tell if the result is the right one, and I feel that it will be historians who will judge whether it was the right one. Those of us here and now will just have to deal with the outcome.