Global warming, is it already too late to make meaningful change?

Fretwired

Cirrus said:

I agree, and I used to say exactly the same thing. I think it comes down to the rate of change and what we can attribute the change to. Yes, climate changes anyway. Sea levels rise and fall. Atmospheric composition changes. But I think there's a difference between noting that it was as warm 2000 years ago when we can say it was because of solar activity, the earth's orbit, a lack of major volcanic eruptions or whatever - it's attributable - vs a rapid change now that goes beyond what we've seen historically that can't be explained by these natural occurances.

As always, there's a relevant XKCD;

The problem with that diagram is the time period. In terms of the life of the Earth it's just a blink. Experts agree the Earth was warmer when the dinosaurs were about. We only have accurate data for a short period of time.

We should focus on improving our technology to create a cleaner planet.

fretmeister

I think the OP can help personally.

He just needs to put one of these in his garden

stickyfiddle

Fretwired said:

Cirrus said:

I agree, and I used to say exactly the same thing. I think it comes down to the rate of change and what we can attribute the change to. Yes, climate changes anyway. Sea levels rise and fall. Atmospheric composition changes. But I think there's a difference between noting that it was as warm 2000 years ago when we can say it was because of solar activity, the earth's orbit, a lack of major volcanic eruptions or whatever - it's attributable - vs a rapid change now that goes beyond what we've seen historically that can't be explained by these natural occurances.

As always, there's a relevant XKCD;

The problem with that diagram is the time period. In terms of the life of the Earth it's just a blink. Experts agree the Earth was warmer when the dinosaurs were about. We only have accurate data for a short period of time.

We should focus on improving our technology to create a cleaner planet.

The fact that the diagram doesn't go back to the big bang doesn't mean the diagram is wrong. There is clearly a spike in (very) recent years which is very likely to be caused by us. 

In any case, focusing on renewables and decent energy storage has the potential to solve a large portion of the world's issues. If we get to the point where energy is basically free for everyone *everything* should get better.

fretmeister

Triffids!!!!!

Cirrus

stickyfiddle said:

Fretwired said:

The problem with that diagram is the time period. In terms of the life of the Earth it's just a blink. Experts agree the Earth was warmer when the dinosaurs were about. We only have accurate data for a short period of time.

We should focus on improving our technology to create a cleaner planet.

The fact that the diagram doesn't go back to the big bang doesn't mean the diagram is wrong. There is clearly a spike in (very) recent years which is very likely to be caused by us. 

Actually, it does. I just cut it down to spare everyone's scroll wheels. 

Seriously though, Yes it's just a blink. But I think statistically it's a long enough period with accurate geological temperature records to demonstrate that the global temp rises in the last ~50 years are a major deviation from the usual rate of change.

TheMarlin

I'd be careful of sucking up any info spouted out by major governments and government organisations as gospel.  

I'm very much a sceptic of global warming being anything more than usual earth sun heating/cooking cycles. 

Cirrus

TheMarlin said:

I'd be careful of sucking up any info spouted out by major governments and government organisations as gospel.  

I'm very much a sceptic of global warming being anything more than usual earth sun heating/cooking cycles. 

I suppose if you've done the research and you have conclusive evidence to support your position and debunk the findings of mainstream scientists, no one has a right to argue with your position.

Fretwired

stickyfiddle said:

The fact that the diagram doesn't go back to the big bang doesn't mean the diagram is wrong. There is clearly a spike in (very) recent years which is very likely to be caused by us. 

In any case, focusing on renewables and decent energy storage has the potential to solve a large portion of the world's issues. If we get to the point where energy is basically free for everyone *everything* should get better.

That's my point. The scientists are focusing on the wrong thing - people are wary of long term predictions especially on issues like the climate and will do bugger all. Focus on what can be done today and improve things a step at a time.

Rewenables can help the planet - they can also create new well-paid high-tech jobs and create new industries and investment opportunities. That's a much easier sell for the world's population. Cheap clean power and jobs ..

fretmeister

stickyfiddle

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

The fact that the diagram doesn't go back to the big bang doesn't mean the diagram is wrong. There is clearly a spike in (very) recent years which is very likely to be caused by us. 

In any case, focusing on renewables and decent energy storage has the potential to solve a large portion of the world's issues. If we get to the point where energy is basically free for everyone *everything* should get better.

That's my point. The scientists are focusing on the wrong thing - people are wary of long term predictions especially on issues like the climate and will do bugger all. Focus on what can be done today and improve things a step at a time.

Rewenables can help the planet - they can also create new well-paid high-tech jobs and create new industries and investment opportunities. That's a much easier sell for the world's population. Cheap clean power and jobs ..

Ok, then we're on the same page. Selling people on what might happen to their grandkids is stupid, when we're at the point that heavy investment will help all of us in the next 10 years. 

I absolutely can't wait for solar-frickin-everything (and driverless cars to get all the dickheads out of control, but that's another thread). We're already at the point where industrial-scale solar plants are seeing tariffs that match or beat those of fossil fuels (at least in Chile and the Middle East). Another 10 years' R&D and both the efficiency and price should both be getting to the point that burning fossil fuels starts to look like a really daft thing to do. 

It's a fascinating time to be a human. I just hope we don't fuck it up.

fretmeister

TheMarlin said:

I'd be careful of sucking up any info spouted out by major governments and government organisations as gospel.  

I'm very much a sceptic of global warming being anything more than usual earth sun heating/cooking cycles. 

This is a question to all the conspiracy nuts.

What is the purpose of the conspiracy? Every conspiracy needs an aim.

It is NOT taxation as no government has ever need a reason to do whatever they want with taxation.They don't even try to justify their decisions.

So what is the aim?

TheBlueWolf

With Donald Trump potentially taking over as President next week I'm more worried about the resulting Armageddon......

But  I think we should, as a planet, on making it greener though.

Fretwired

fretmeister said:

Although being a cynic I'd point out that there's no funding for global warming deniers .. :-)

And arguments aren't helped by findings like this (backed in part  by NASA) .. https://astronomynow.com/2015/07/17/diminishing-solar-activity-may-bring-new-ice-age-by-2030/

Chalky

If you'd asked world scientists in the late 40s about the universe they would have told you the Steady State theory was correct, and only a few would have said they believed in Big Bang theory. The vast majority of scientists will go along with the prevalent view as a matter of course. Revolutionary or renegade views don't get employment or grants...

stickyfiddle

fretmeister said:

TheMarlin said:

I'd be careful of sucking up any info spouted out by major governments and government organisations as gospel.  

I'm very much a sceptic of global warming being anything more than usual earth sun heating/cooking cycles. 

This is a question to all the conspiracy nuts.

What is the purpose of the conspiracy? Every conspiracy needs an aim.

It is NOT taxation as no government has ever need a reason to do whatever they want with taxation.They don't even try to justify their decisions.

So what is the aim?

I gotta assume it's because of the lizard people who run the world are cold blooded. So they'd rather everything got warmer and some of those pesky mammal-humans died a bit to make space for new race of lizard-super-humans. Right?

fretmeister

Chalky said:

If you'd asked world scientists in the late 40s about the universe they would have told you the Steady State theory was correct, and only a few would have said they believed in Big Bang theory. The vast majority of scientists will go along with the prevalent view as a matter of course. Revolutionary or renegade views don't get employment or grants...

Very true.

And it was the first people who said "man made climate change" who were those renegades.

Chalky

Is @stickyfiddle really @Sambostar?

Modellista

Climate "scientists" have been proven liars - see East Anglia and that loony Michael Mann.

Even during the 17-year pause, no climate "scientists" were admitting they got it wrong and hanging up their white coats.

Climate "scientists" are funded on the basis that global warming is happening.  No global warming = no funding.

Agreeing the climate is changing doesn't mean you agree it's 100% (or even 10%) caused by mankind.

A true scientist would acknowledge that nothing can be proven without experiment.  Therefore we cannot ever prove ACG.

Climate modelling has been entirely useless.

If economies steadily move towards low-pollution, low-energy consumption states, maintaining quality of life for their citizens, then fine.  If we all get taxed out of existence because of some unproveable scare story, then not fine.

stickyfiddle

Chalky said:

Is @stickyfiddle really @Sambostar?

Good god I hope not!!  

Fretwired

fretmeister said:

This is a question to all the conspiracy nuts.

What is the purpose of the conspiracy? Every conspiracy needs an aim.

It is NOT taxation as no government has ever need a reason to do whatever they want with taxation.They don't even try to justify their decisions.

So what is the aim?

I don't see it as a conspiracy - its a rational explanation for the evidence. I just think the planet/universe is more complex ... I'd prefer focusing on pollution that kills millions of people a year and activities that pollute the seas, kill wildlife remove forests and habitats and screw up the environment. To do that we need to invest in new tech and take on the big corporations which stand to lose billions.

The fact that over 9000 people a year dies from pollution in London should be a wakeup call to do something.