Back to windows 7 for me

digitalscream

randella said:

bingefeller said:

This is why Macs are so good - they just work!

When you boil it down, the Mac in front of me is basically an Intel PC running Linux-in-a-posh-frock (i.e. Mac OS).  At current list prices it'd cost a minimum of £1,749 to replace.

For that money, it'd want it to 'just work'.  Anecdotally, it freezes and crashes at approximately the same rate as the other computer in front of me, an Intel PC running Windows 8 which is my main development machine and whose approximate replacement cost is £800 (I'm including a decent-sized panel in that price).

Just for correctness, and because I really shouldn't be up right now...OS X is actually BSD-in-a-posh-frock. It has its own kernel (mach, I think) with a few bits nicked from the BSD kernel, but the userland tools are all BSD (or derived from it).

That makes it a mystery as to why it's so unreliable relative to BSD. On the surface, at least; look deeper, and most of their software crashes are kernel-related or GUI-related.

Myranda

digitalscream said:

randella said:

bingefeller said:

This is why Macs are so good - they just work!

When you boil it down, the Mac in front of me is basically an Intel PC running Linux-in-a-posh-frock (i.e. Mac OS).  At current list prices it'd cost a minimum of £1,749 to replace.

For that money, it'd want it to 'just work'.  Anecdotally, it freezes and crashes at approximately the same rate as the other computer in front of me, an Intel PC running Windows 8 which is my main development machine and whose approximate replacement cost is £800 (I'm including a decent-sized panel in that price).

Just for correctness, and because I really shouldn't be up right now...OS X is actually BSD-in-a-posh-frock. It has its own kernel (mach, I think), but the userland tools are all BSD.

Is it not Unis in a pretty bonneyt?

Axe_meister

TBH I'm surprised Apple haven't gone for a Linix back end rather than BSD as there is a far larger Linux developer community out there. Also enterprises rely on Linux rather than BSD

digitalscream

Axe_meister said:

TBH I'm surprised Apple haven't gone for a Linix back end rather than BSD as there is a far larger Linux developer community out there. Also enterprises rely on Linux rather than BSD

Licensing. The BSD licence lets them get away with a lot more shenanigans than the GPL.

Myranda

Axe_meister said:

TBH I'm surprised Apple haven't gone for a Linix back end rather than BSD as there is a far larger Linux developer community out there. Also enterprises rely on Linux rather than BSD

But donyt appl pre-datye the popular liunx?

Dev cycle of many years result in what we see now... 

linkx mught be popular but Unic is still really importants

Axe_meister

In the enterprise Unix is dying. The likes of SAP are only supporting Linux (even on power architectures)
HPUX is dead. Everybody hates Oracle and hence Solaris and AIX is just holding on.

Wazmeister

I love these Mac vs PC debates, and the usual stuff emerges...

Ive used both for ever, and Mac destroy PC in just about every way conceivable... except thst most peoples works use PCs...

Try linking a PC into a room full of Macs; then you'll understand about compatability

Jez6345789

Perhaps I have been a lucky Mac user. personally I have used every Windows since 2 and yes I agree 7 was probably the most solid out there but most of our small office Dells that do nothing but emails, and basic office stuff hit the Windows crawl after 18 months. My business partner who is a Windows fan has to admit it takes time and effort to keep just 6 machines running well and is always amazed that my 8 year old pre unibody Mac is still running just fine and I just threw a random SSD in a few years back as a mid life kicker. All just works.

my current 2 year Mb pro again is a powerhouse edits video music and flies along.

So much so we have now replaced the two oldest Dells with iMacs into the network a month in they are playing nicely with the old Dells we share accounting data over the network etc etc and the accounts person is now running her quick books in Parralells and doing everything else in OSX. 

Ultimately we we do nothing exotic or heavy but it all seems to work and the bit of video and stuff we do for marketing the MacBooks take care of.

as for moving several gig of data over a network I moved the raw shoot files over our network to one of the new iMacs to see how well they worked for editing on a bigger screen and it all just worked. Doubt it was the quickest but solid.

As always with MAC an Pc YMMV

bingefeller

Only problem I've had with a Mac is a DVD got stuck in my old desktop iMac.  Never had problems (touch wood) with any of my MacBooks. 

Bit sick of all the Mac bashing on here mate. 

Drew_TNBD

bingefeller said:

Only problem I've had with a Mac is a DVD got stuck in my old desktop iMac.  Never had problems (touch wood) with any of my MacBooks. 

Bit sick of all the Mac bashing on here mate. 

Peter Suttcliffe and Ian Watkins were both fans of Macs. I rest my case.

bingefeller

Drew_TNBD said:

bingefeller said:

Only problem I've had with a Mac is a DVD got stuck in my old desktop iMac.  Never had problems (touch wood) with any of my MacBooks. 

Bit sick of all the Mac bashing on here mate. 

Peter Suttcliffe and Ian Watkins were both fans of Macs. I rest my case.

So is @Octatonic, so pretty much all the best people. 

bingefeller

monquixote said:

bingefeller said:

This is why Macs are so good - they just work!

We are all Mac at work and their reliability is shit.

Seriously man, if they are so bad would your company not consider making an investment and changing to PC?

Danny1969

I was never a fan of the old Apple stuff. Repairing iBooks and G3 \ G4 based notebooks was a nightmare. But once the Intel based models came out and the unibody design and such I changed my mind. People think oh both Mac and PC both use Intel chips they must be the same, it's just Apple charge more for the brand. If you believe that then you probably also believe a £25 Behringer pedal is as well built as a Thorpy Gunshot.
You might not notice the real internal quality difference between the Apple and generic PC unless you spend time actually inside repairing the guts ..... and I don't mean changing a drive or a graphics card I mean repairing a buck convertor voltage reducer on the motherboard or an LVDS driver chip. The PCB used inside a Macbook or Imac is higher quality than anything I come across from brands like Dell \ HP \ Lenova  .... the chassis is better built, the keyboard is better thought out, better supported. Areas are created actually in the milling of the unibody to run wi fi cables, not just taped down as an afterthought. The attention to detail is amazing

I don't get involved with software so no comment on OSX being better than Windows or whatever. I do use a Mac for data recovery though simply because a Mac can read NTFS as well as it's own FAT and it doesn't give a shit about Windows permissions. 

crunchman

To be honest Mac OS and Windoze both have a lot of bloatware.  In a lot of ways they are as bad as each other.

I want a simple OS that doesn't clutter things up with stuff that isn't necessary.  I don't want iCloud installed as part of the OS on a Mac - I want to choose my own cloud service that will work with my Android devices.  I don't want a feature that integrates everything with an iPad and/or iPhone when I don't own these things.

Likewise Windows is just as bad adding bloatware like Cortana.

The OS should be simple and bare bones and as quick as possible.  Make the bloatware available as a free download for those who want it, or if you insist on pre-installing it then at least make it possible to uninstall it.

Given that both OS have major flaws the choice comes down to the hardware and the available software.  Sometimes you have no choice for certain software e.g. Logic.  I bought a Macbook Pro several years ago to run Logic.  The machine was grotesquely overpriced but I had no alternative.  Coming from a PC background, I hate the Apple way of working, I hate the US keyboard layout.  So after 6 years when I replaced it I bought a PC and Reaper.

The PC might not be as well built, but if even if I have to bin it and buy another it's still going to work out cheaper than another Apple.  For all that @Danny1969 said about the quality of PC motherboards most of them are perfectly fit for purpose.  I've had a Dell with it's original motherboard and processor in it for nearly 8 years until I upgraded it recently.  For a desktop you can buy a brand new motherboard for as little as £40 if you go for a basic spec.  I know our throwaway society is not ideal, and nothing against Danny, but it's not economical for me to pay someone like him to fix a motherboard.  The economics of a laptop might be a bit different but when I bought my MBP I could have bought two PC laptops with the same size screen, same processor, same memory and same hard drive and had £170 left over.

Drew_TNBD

Danny1969 said:

People think oh both Mac and PC both use Intel chips they must be the same, it's just Apple charge more for the brand. If you believe that then you probably also believe a £25 Behringer pedal is as well built as a Thorpy Gunshot.
You might not notice the real internal quality difference between the Apple and generic PC unless you spend time actually inside repairing the guts ..... and I don't mean changing a drive or a graphics card I mean repairing a buck convertor voltage reducer on the motherboard or an LVDS driver chip. The PCB used inside a Macbook or Imac is higher quality than anything I come across from brands like Dell \ HP \ Lenova  .... the chassis is better built, the keyboard is better thought out, better supported. Areas are created actually in the milling of the unibody to run wi fi cables, not just taped down as an afterthought. The attention to detail is amazing

I don't think this is true. At all.

Drew_TNBD

crunchman said:

To be honest Mac OS and Windoze both have a lot of bloatware.  In a lot of ways they are as bad as each other.

I want a simple OS that doesn't clutter things up with stuff that isn't necessary.  I don't want iCloud installed as part of the OS on a Mac - I want to choose my own cloud service that will work with my Android devices.  I don't want a feature that integrates everything with an iPad and/or iPhone when I don't own these things.

Likewise Windows is just as bad adding bloatware like Cortana.

The OS should be simple and bare bones and as quick as possible.  Make the bloatware available as a free download for those who want it, or if you insist on pre-installing it then at least make it possible to uninstall it.

Given that both OS have major flaws the choice comes down to the hardware and the available software.

Well in the audio game, OSX is generally better because Core Audio is built right into the kernel and isn't a 3rd-party addon like ASIO is. You can typically get lower latencies on OSX because of this.

Most of my audio software is cross platform though. I use Windows and OSX interchangeably. I do all my video stuff on OSX because the video software options on Windows are utterly pants.

But for recording, it's pretty much 1:1 these days, latency aside.

randella

I've never understood what I've come to call 'operating system tribalism'.  They're all to within an inch of being the same, so why folk define themselves by the computer they use or the phone they carry around is beyond me.

Still, I never understand why people do the same with cars either.

Anyway, I digress.  Big wis to @crunchman who sums up a lot of what I feel about it. (I don't mind the US keyboard layout, but then I suppose I'm just a dirty wrong'un )

Danny1969

Drew_TNBD said:

Danny1969 said:

People think oh both Mac and PC both use Intel chips they must be the same, it's just Apple charge more for the brand. If you believe that then you probably also believe a £25 Behringer pedal is as well built as a Thorpy Gunshot.
You might not notice the real internal quality difference between the Apple and generic PC unless you spend time actually inside repairing the guts ..... and I don't mean changing a drive or a graphics card I mean repairing a buck convertor voltage reducer on the motherboard or an LVDS driver chip. The PCB used inside a Macbook or Imac is higher quality than anything I come across from brands like Dell \ HP \ Lenova  .... the chassis is better built, the keyboard is better thought out, better supported. Areas are created actually in the milling of the unibody to run wi fi cables, not just taped down as an afterthought. The attention to detail is amazing

I don't think this is true. At all.

Then you probably don't know a great deal about basic mechanical and electronic design. 

Bidley

Danny1969 said:

People think oh both Mac and PC both use Intel chips they must be the same, it's just Apple charge more for the brand. If you believe that then you probably also believe a £25 Behringer pedal is as well built as a Thorpy Gunshot.
You might not notice the real internal quality difference between the Apple and generic PC

This again! What is a generic PC? I can guarantee if you took a PC made to the same price point as a Mac, the PC would be better in every way except looks. And you wouldn't look as good tapping on it in Starbucks with your hipster scarf and horn-rimmed glasses

@randella makes a great point. This trend of fandom and wanting to be defined by a bit of tech is worrying (I'm no better than anyone else).

Drew_TNBD

Danny1969 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Danny1969 said:

People think oh both Mac and PC both use Intel chips they must be the same, it's just Apple charge more for the brand. If you believe that then you probably also believe a £25 Behringer pedal is as well built as a Thorpy Gunshot.
You might not notice the real internal quality difference between the Apple and generic PC unless you spend time actually inside repairing the guts ..... and I don't mean changing a drive or a graphics card I mean repairing a buck convertor voltage reducer on the motherboard or an LVDS driver chip. The PCB used inside a Macbook or Imac is higher quality than anything I come across from brands like Dell \ HP \ Lenova  .... the chassis is better built, the keyboard is better thought out, better supported. Areas are created actually in the milling of the unibody to run wi fi cables, not just taped down as an afterthought. The attention to detail is amazing

I don't think this is true. At all.

Then you probably don't know a great deal about basic mechanical and electronic design. 

Perhaps.

But then again, maybe you just don't know anything about manufacturing? A lot of the components for Macs are made in the same factories by the same people who make both components for off the shelf PC's, and components for after-market purchases. The manufacturing techniques are the same, the source components are the same, and within the same price point internal quality is going to have parity across the board.

You can't compare a £1600 Macbook to a £200 ALDI laptop, or a Dell, or a HP, or a Lenovo (yeah you spelt that one wrong, it's okay, I forgive you). That isn't a fair comparison. But compare a £1600 Macbook to a high-end Alienware laptop, and the build quality even down to the component level will be very very comparable indeed.

Things are made to a price. Comparing something made to an entry level price, to something made to a high-end level price. It's just utterly dumb.

I have seen you say some really ill-informed stuff over the years. Doesn't matter whether it was about soundcards, DAWs, recording, or virtual instruments. I'm not the only one to notice it either, given the clandestine chats I've had with some forumers on the subject. At the end of the day, you're one of those guys who seems to think he knows absolutely everything about everything, but sadly you don't have any self awareness for how you come across.

And you do the exact same thing in every Apple VS PC thread. Ever. You really do. So if I'm coming across rather curt, it's because I've seen this song and dance from you many a time.