Back to windows 7 for me

ThePrettyDamned

Danny1969 said:

I was never a fan of the old Apple stuff. Repairing iBooks and G3 \ G4 based notebooks was a nightmare. But once the Intel based models came out and the unibody design and such I changed my mind. People think oh both Mac and PC both use Intel chips they must be the same, it's just Apple charge more for the brand. If you believe that then you probably also believe a £25 Behringer pedal is as well built as a Thorpy Gunshot.
You might not notice the real internal quality difference between the Apple and generic PC unless you spend time actually inside repairing the guts ..... and I don't mean changing a drive or a graphics card I mean repairing a buck convertor voltage reducer on the motherboard or an LVDS driver chip. The PCB used inside a Macbook or Imac is higher quality than anything I come across from brands like Dell \ HP \ Lenova  .... the chassis is better built, the keyboard is better thought out, better supported. Areas are created actually in the milling of the unibody to run wi fi cables, not just taped down as an afterthought. The attention to detail is amazing

I don't get involved with software so no comment on OSX being better than Windows or whatever. I do use a Mac for data recovery though simply because a Mac can read NTFS as well as it's own FAT and it doesn't give a shit about Windows permissions. 

Which sounds great, but doesn't explain why they charge £225 for an upgrade from an i5 6500 to an i7 6700. 

Or £540(!) To increase ram from a measly 8gb to 32gb. 

I get that the monitor is good, but honestly, that's mad. 

http://www.apple.com/uk/shop/buy-mac/imac?product=MK482B/A&step=config#

Compare to this

http://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/76ML7h

Okay, it's not a 5k monitor. But it's a good quality, good size monitor that won't screw up text sizes too much (5k screens still have issues, even in Mac land) with a wide colour gamut. It has a decent size m.2 drive for OS, apps and Lightroom catalogue, a bigger ssd for raw files and a few games. No need for bigger as you need to backup files to external drives anyway - 500gb is plenty. Upgrade to a 500gb m.2 or 1tb ssd for abut 150 quid more each. Or, pick a slightly larger case and put a couple of spinning disk drives in for 60 quid each and raid them as a mirror. 

I don't really take apple quality to issue, just the upgrade prices and the poor base model specifications. To get similar iMac spec would require 27 inch monitor as the 21.5 inch ones do not come with the newer processors, and cost over £3000. Even taking into account a professional building it, that's a 1/3rd saving - at least. Which goes towards the next build, or my profits. Gah! But the iMac would be so convenient..

digitalscream

Danny1969 said:

You might not notice the real internal quality difference between the Apple and generic PC unless you spend time actually inside repairing the guts ..... and I don't mean changing a drive or a graphics card I mean repairing a buck convertor voltage reducer on the motherboard or an LVDS driver chip.

That's a bit of a laugh. Even Apple don't bother repairing mainboard components - they just replace the whole board. Like, for example, when the heat problems caused by their lack of forethought caused the GPU to lift off their really high quality mainboard.

Which they can afford to do, since the markup on their stuff is ludicrously high compared to most other computer manufacturers.

I'm not sure how you can say their boards and design are higher-quality than anybody else's with a straight face when a huge number of their repairs involve replacing that board.

earwighoney

Drew_TNBD said:

Most of my audio software is cross platform though. I use Windows and OSX interchangeably. I do all my video stuff on OSX because the video software options on Windows are utterly pants.

Have you ever tried Adobe Audition for PC?  I'm intrigued to why there are no decent video options on Windows, video editing isn't something I know much about.  I'm surprised though as Mac's declining options in desktop computers and 'pro' laptops becoming insanely expensive there isn't a decent option for Windows.

I use both Windows and Mac OSX equally.  I've found Windows 10 to be ok so far, no real problems; less cumbersome to use than Windows 8. 

Drew_TNBD

digitalscream said:

Danny1969 said:

You might not notice the real internal quality difference between the Apple and generic PC unless you spend time actually inside repairing the guts ..... and I don't mean changing a drive or a graphics card I mean repairing a buck convertor voltage reducer on the motherboard or an LVDS driver chip.

That's a bit of a laugh. Even Apple don't bother repairing mainboard components - they just replace the whole board. Like, for example, when the heat problems caused by their lack of forethought caused the GPU to lift off their really high quality mainboard.

Which they can afford to do, since the markup on their stuff is ludicrously high compared to most other computer manufacturers.

I'm not sure how you can say their boards and design are higher-quality than anybody else's when a huge number of their repairs involve replacing that board.

Absolutely!

Anecdotally, a guy who used to work for us took his Macbook in after the mainboard fried. They replaced it. A month later it fried again. They replaced it. Half a year later it fried again. He took his laptop in, and they said that they weren't allowed or able to replace the mainboard three times, so they gave him a totally new laptop.

Apple are in the position where they shift so many units to latte sipping wankers, they can afford to straight up give someone a brand new laptop years after they originally purchased it.

Wonder where those broken mainboards went... probably a landfill in Germany.

And here I am with my Gigabyte mobos, my newest lasting at least a year, and my previous one lasting over three years and still going strong as I sold it to a dude on Gumtree and he ended up using it for a second 3d machine.

Drew_TNBD

earwighoney said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Most of my audio software is cross platform though. I use Windows and OSX interchangeably. I do all my video stuff on OSX because the video software options on Windows are utterly pants.

Have you ever tried Adobe Audition for PC?  I'm intrigued to why there are no decent video options on Windows, video editing isn't something I know much about.  I'm surprised though as Mac's declining options in desktop computers and 'pro' laptops becoming insanely expensive there isn't a decent option for Windows.

I use both Windows and Mac OSX equally.  I've found Windows 10 to be ok so far, no real problems; less cumbersome to use than Windows 8. 

Well on Windows you've got Adobe Premiere which is industry standard. But I just don't like it. Feels like working in a early 90's Amiga app to me! On OSX you've got the other industry standard which is Final Cut, and I just prefer it. There are video editors on Windows, but a lot of them don't offer full feature sets and are quite limited. Also regardless of platform, coming from the audio world, it seems like video editing is at least 10 years behind!

I've used Audition a bit, but not enough to really comment on it. As I understand it though, it's legacy harks back to Cool Edit, which was a really cracking piece of software. I never really need a dedicated audio editor these days though, I do everything inside my DAW. Reaper or Studio One.

mudslide73

I'm a network admin. I prefer Microsoft server platforms because they're easier to manage. Macs are good too.

randella

Bidley said:

@randella makes a great point. This trend of fandom and wanting to be defined by a bit of tech is worrying (I'm no better than anyone else).

Hahaha, I'm no better either, I just reserve my tribalism for the important things in life.

*cough*

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earwighoney

Drew_TNBD said:

 Well on Windows you've got Adobe Premiere which is industry standard. But I just don't like it. Feels like working in a early 90's Amiga app to me! On OSX you've got the other industry standard which is Final Cut, and I just prefer it. There are video editors on Windows, but a lot of them don't offer full feature sets and are quite limited. Also regardless of platform, coming from the audio world, it seems like video editing is at least 10 years behind!

I've used Audition a bit, but not enough to really comment on it. As I understand it though, it's legacy harks back to Cool Edit, which was a really cracking piece of software. I never really need a dedicated audio editor these days though, I do everything inside my DAW. Reaper or Studio One.

Thanks for the info about Video editors.  I think with Final Cut being pretty cheap as well, it's a pretty decent option for video editing if you have a Mac. 

I meant to write Adobe Premiere (the video one), not Audition!  I use Audition for a fair few projects and it's alright.  I preferred using a old Sound Forge for Windows, that was awesome!  

Danny1969

Too many quotes to address directly so this is a quicker way of doing it

I never said a PC built to the same price point as an Apple product wouldn't be every bit as good. I simply said Apple products are designed and built better. They have a bigger budget, they can sell it for more, so they can make it out of metal instead of plastic, they can use better materials throughout. Yes I'm well aware Apple stuff is built by Foxconn who also build for many other OEM's but that doesn't mean it's built  to the same spec and standard ..... it isn't ....because the likes of Acer and HP etc don't have the hipster fanboy base who will buy it at the price point Apple can sell at. So Foxconn will build their bottom base from plastic instead of metal, the keyboard will be either plastic riveted under the plastic palm rest or laid on top of the palm rest and secured with plastic clips. 

Addressing the repair point, anything can be repaired but the level of skill required and the type of equipment required can lead to a point where it's not viable. I find Apple boards and Apple SMPU 's more repairable because there's less catastrophic domino effects when something fails. Obviously I repair Windows laptops as well it's just the model life is shorter, there's less available schematics and  more global failure across the board when something like a cap shorts.

The deal with the nVidia chips lifting of the board ? I'm not so sure .... I can generally make a difference heating the top of the chip well before the lead free BGA joints under the chip are hot enough to be  effected .... that leads me to believe the fault with the NVidia chips is in the actual chip it's self ... not an issue with the BGA joints. I've never seen a reballed board last more than 6 months or so which also confirms that theory

@Drew_TNBD    I'm well aware I don't come across well on here ... there's an art to communicating well via a forum. I probably do seem like a right know it all. As for saying the same thing when the old Apple  \ PC quality thing comes we all say the same things when the same subject comes up time and time again. That's kinda forum life

digitalscream

Danny1969 said:

The deal with the nVidia chips lifting of the board ? I'm not so sure .... I can generally make a difference heating the top of the chip well before the lead free BGA joints under the chip are hot enough to be  effected .... that leads me to believe the fault with the NVidia chips is in the actual chip it's self ... not an issue with the BGA joints. I've never seen a reballed board last more than 6 months or so which also confirms that theory

Those chips were standard, and there was no fault with them. Apple simply failed to account for the heat they generated when they designed the machine; the heat couldn't be dissipated because of the design of the whole thing.

The fact that a reballed board didn't last more than 6 months doesn't confirm that the fault was with the chips at all (many other laptops had the same chip, but only Apple machines had this problem). Rather, it confirms that the design of the machine as a whole had inadequate heat dissipation. The fact that this isn't the only instance of Apple's form-over-function design philosophy causing heat problems confirms that theory.

UnclePsychosis

Mac vs PC is such a lame argument. 

We should get into something really important and interesting, like Nvidia vs AMD.  

Danny1969

digitalscream said:

Danny1969 said:

The deal with the nVidia chips lifting of the board ? I'm not so sure .... I can generally make a difference heating the top of the chip well before the lead free BGA joints under the chip are hot enough to be  effected .... that leads me to believe the fault with the NVidia chips is in the actual chip it's self ... not an issue with the BGA joints. I've never seen a reballed board last more than 6 months or so which also confirms that theory

Those chips were standard, and there was no fault with them. Apple simply failed to account for the heat they generated when they designed the machine; the heat couldn't be dissipated because of the design of the whole thing.

The fact that a reballed board didn't last more than 6 months doesn't confirm that the fault was with the chips at all (many other laptops had the same chip, but only Apple machines had this problem). Rather, it confirms that the design of the machine as a whole had inadequate heat dissipation. The fact that this isn't the only instance of Apple's form-over-function design philosophy causing heat problems confirms that theory.

I'm not aware of what specific case your talking about, there's been a few instances over the years of bad Nvidia and ATI  \ AMD chips

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010/10/nvidia-settles-faulty-processor-suit-dell-hp-compaq-mac.html

That's just one instance above, HP were fixing machines out of warranty because of bad Nvidia chips, so were other OEM's

digitalscream

Danny1969 said:

digitalscream said:

Danny1969 said:

The deal with the nVidia chips lifting of the board ? I'm not so sure .... I can generally make a difference heating the top of the chip well before the lead free BGA joints under the chip are hot enough to be  effected .... that leads me to believe the fault with the NVidia chips is in the actual chip it's self ... not an issue with the BGA joints. I've never seen a reballed board last more than 6 months or so which also confirms that theory

Those chips were standard, and there was no fault with them. Apple simply failed to account for the heat they generated when they designed the machine; the heat couldn't be dissipated because of the design of the whole thing.

The fact that a reballed board didn't last more than 6 months doesn't confirm that the fault was with the chips at all (many other laptops had the same chip, but only Apple machines had this problem). Rather, it confirms that the design of the machine as a whole had inadequate heat dissipation. The fact that this isn't the only instance of Apple's form-over-function design philosophy causing heat problems confirms that theory.

I'm not aware of what specific case your talking about, there's been a few instances over the years of bad Nvidia and ATI  \ AMD chips

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010/10/nvidia-settles-faulty-processor-suit-dell-hp-compaq-mac.html

That's just one instance above, HP were fixing machines out of warranty because of bad Nvidia chips, so were other OEM's

You're talking about the one from 2008. Try this:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2015/02/20/apple-admits-gpu-design-flaw/1

Drew_TNBD

Danny1969 said:

digitalscream said:

Danny1969 said:

The deal with the nVidia chips lifting of the board ? I'm not so sure .... I can generally make a difference heating the top of the chip well before the lead free BGA joints under the chip are hot enough to be  effected .... that leads me to believe the fault with the NVidia chips is in the actual chip it's self ... not an issue with the BGA joints. I've never seen a reballed board last more than 6 months or so which also confirms that theory

Those chips were standard, and there was no fault with them. Apple simply failed to account for the heat they generated when they designed the machine; the heat couldn't be dissipated because of the design of the whole thing.

The fact that a reballed board didn't last more than 6 months doesn't confirm that the fault was with the chips at all (many other laptops had the same chip, but only Apple machines had this problem). Rather, it confirms that the design of the machine as a whole had inadequate heat dissipation. The fact that this isn't the only instance of Apple's form-over-function design philosophy causing heat problems confirms that theory.

I'm not aware of what specific case your talking about, there's been a few instances over the years of bad Nvidia and ATI  \ AMD chips

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010/10/nvidia-settles-faulty-processor-suit-dell-hp-compaq-mac.html

That's just one instance above, HP were fixing machines out of warranty because of bad Nvidia chips, so were other OEM's

He's talking about this sort of thing:
http://www.cultofmac.com/262861/early-2011-macbook-pros-dropping-like-flies-heat-issues-blame/

And that bunch weren't even anything to do with NVIDIA chips.

It’s a bad situation, and frankly, the issue seems obvious: It’s a heating issue, to which Macs have always been susceptible.

Jalapeno

bingefeller said:

Only problem I've had with a Mac is a DVD got stuck in my old desktop iMac.  Never had problems (touch wood) with any of my MacBooks. 

Bit sick of all the Mac bashing on here mate. 

It's more Mac Fanboi bashing tbh. Apple make good stuff, but they're really consumer electronics these days, with built in obsolescence.

My Mac Mini died from disc failure after just 3 years - non Apple SSD & Ram hack/upgrade and it's been ok for 18 mths so far.

The Mac peripherals and core platform are identical to PC - so all this reliability chatter is really hogwash - under the skin they're the same thing.  It's more that the Apple O/S is moving towards Windows in terms of complexity and general flakiness, than the other way around ......

mudslide73

Is putting non Apple hardware in a Mac considered a hack? Arf!

colourofsound

TL;DR - They are both as good (and as bad) as each other!

Didn't think I'd see a Mac vs PC debate in 2016. You guys are so old fashioned

I've worked in Apple Shops and run Macs for over 10 years. I work for a University in IT and we run a Windows environment.

From a software point of view: There is no best. There is no better. They both have great advantages and disadvantages; and it really depends on your use case.

Having said that - Microsoft have upped their game from a consumer point of view - Windows 10 is a true accomplishment as far as speed and UI is concerned - its the best work they've ever done. It's still fraught with totally ridiculous legacy issues though - Microsoft's main problem is that they don't trim the fat, they don't start from the ground up. Windows 10 is built on an iteration of the Windows 7 kernel; same as Windows 8 before it. Windows 7 was solid and Microsoft are too scared to let it go.

Apple on the other hand, have lost me a little lately. I was a died in the wool Apple fanboy - Snow Leopard is probably the best OS to have graced a machine in recent years - but Apple keep adding shit that makes them look like Microsoft. iCloud prompts everywhere, software updates breaking apps (even their own apps). Apple was never as unreliable as it is now - it's since Jobs died. Sounds ridiculous, but that man had an eye for quality control that you just can't argue against.

With a barrel to my head I would still pick Mac - in my opinion it is the better platform from a consumer standpoint and as an audio engineer. Even though they totally fucked Final Cut Pro with version X - Logic X is the best iteration ever and really gives Pro Tools a run for it's money. And it's like £100. For me, Apple's general approach is more intuitive than Microsofts - it's less 'it just works' and rather 'it gets out of the way'. There are no UAC prompts, no browser choice software updates; nothing installs without you asking it to.

From a hardware point of view, you can't argue with the build quality of Mac laptops; and as a fellow engineer I agree with @Danny1969; however once you start spending the same money on a PC as you do on a Mac you get the same quality, in my opinion. PC manufacturers have really upped their game in relation to the build quality of cases and keyboards towards the higher price range. Anything under say £800 PC laptop wise is total dogshit and you'd be lucky to get 3-5 years out of it before it just disintegrates. I've seen Macs run for 10 years unheeded in comparison.

When it comes to Desktop machines though - the price of Macs just doesn't justify the specs. What you're paying for is convenience - I could buy a Mac Mini spec'd machine for half the price of a Mac Mini - but it would be twice the physical size. The iMacs are probably the best value for money given that the screens are some of the best in the business - but the Mac Pro is a fucking joke.

I now run a Hackintosh of my own build - I followed guides to ensure I picked the correct PC parts and I installed OS X on it. It has the equivalent specs of a £1800 iMac at the time I built it which is about 5 years ago, and it cost me £600. I sold my Mac Mini to fund it!

 And it's incredibly reliable - the Hackintosh community has got the whole thing sorted; and if you're willing to get your hands dirty it's well worth the effort. Granted it's for the more technically minded, and if something does go wrong it's more complicated to fix - but for the more involved user such as myself its the perfect solution.

*grabs popcorn*

bingefeller

mudslide73 said:

Is putting non Apple hardware in a Mac considered a hack? Arf!

I think that's referred to has a Hackintosh. 

quarky

I am sure I remember reading where someone ran Windows on his Mac and it ran applications faster than it did under OSX.

Jeremiah

I was a long-time Mac fan (mostly because of Logic), but have finally broken free of the cult.

These days I really think Apple have pushed the "style over substance" thing too far;  I don't mind a laptop that's thicker and heavier than a few sheets of paper if it has the ports I need to connect things, user-accessible RAM and hard disk slots etc.

I was all set to buy one of the new Macbook Pros - until I saw the price and the specs, and now I've just got my first Windows laptop instead.

It will be a long and painful separation, mostly because I'm going to have to go through all my old Logic projects and decide which ones I can abandon,  and which I need to finish before my (2006 model) Macbook finally bites the dust.