Corbyn wants May to make Brexit negotiation strategy public

blobb

Heartfeltdawn said:

blobb said:

He's holding the govmt to account, which is his job.

If the govmt thought they could keep cards close to chest by invoking A50 without asking MP's then, as the courts proved, they were misguided. It's not Corbyn who is at fault here.

I have no political affiliation by the way, just an observation.

Quite clearly the leader of the Opposition on June 24th thought we could invoke A50 without asking MP's as well. 

http://labourlist.org/2016/06/corbyn-article-50-has-to-be-invoked-now/

The backtracking started a month later and is going on now. 

"It is up for parliament to now act on that opinion."

hywelg

Heartfeltdawn said:

However Hywelg is wrong. This isn't for the party's benefit. This is all for the Corbyn camp's benefit. 

You are correct however in the strict sense it is his party now!

Heartfeltdawn

blobb said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

blobb said:

He's holding the govmt to account, which is his job.

If the govmt thought they could keep cards close to chest by invoking A50 without asking MP's then, as the courts proved, they were misguided. It's not Corbyn who is at fault here.

I have no political affiliation by the way, just an observation.

Quite clearly the leader of the Opposition on June 24th thought we could invoke A50 without asking MP's as well. 

http://labourlist.org/2016/06/corbyn-article-50-has-to-be-invoked-now/

The backtracking started a month later and is going on now. 

"It is up for parliament to now act on that opinion."

Which is decidedly open ended. If Corbyn is allowing to claim ambiguity with his original statement over invoking A50 now, then by rights there has to be ambiguity at work with this one too. 

Vox Political in reviewing that original June comment said that Parliament had to follow the will of the people at the right time. But what people? Let's use Bristol as an example. Bristol as a whole voted for Remain by 62% to 38%. Should an MP follow the will of the people on a constituency level? A geographical level? Following the will of the Bristol people would mean an MP voting against invoking A50. Why should an MP in a Remain area follow the will of people outside of their constituency who voted differently? 

I don't think he's been as faultless as you suggest. 

Heartfeltdawn

hywelg said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

However Hywelg is wrong. This isn't for the party's benefit. This is all for the Corbyn camp's benefit. 

You are correct however in the strict sense it is his party now!

I'd argue the case that it isn't. He is leader but he has made much of the idea that it is the membership who matter. Plans are afoot for members to decide policy direction. Certainly when you see how comments made by the deputy leader clash with those made by the leader, it suggests a party still well divided and headed by a man who operates within a very small group, as reported by other members of the party. 

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/politics/tom-watson-says-labour-will-not-block-article-50-jeremy-corbyn-suggests-will/

blobb

I think he is undoubtedly playing games, but that's happening on both sides. Some of the vitriol being spouted in this thread has no basis and is pure opinionated ranting. That's ok, that's what the internet is for.


It's too late for debate now. Those rules were in place before any votes were cast.

Heartfeltdawn

blobb said:

I think he is undoubtedly playing games, but that's happening on both sides. Some of the vitriol being spouted in this thread has no basis and is pure opinionated ranting. That's ok, that's what the internet is for.


It's too late for debate now. Those rules were in place before any votes were cast.

How is it too late for debate? And what rules are we talking here? 

Sambostar

Evilmags

scrumhalf said:

Corbyn is typical of politicians who've never had a proper job and rely on variants of the "do you know who I am?" argument. It's this sort of puffed-up self-importance that makes MPs so risible. Things happen in this country in spite of the vast majority of them, not because of them.

Yup. Spain just had its best years growth since 2006. Why? No bloody government. 

Myranda

RandallFlagg said:

ICBM said:

I'm not totally sure why we need to keep our "hand" secret anyway - it's not as if we're going to be asking for anything they don't expect. If anything I would have thought that openness would get us to a good result more quickly.

But I have become extremely disappointed with Corbyn, for at least the reasons Heartfeltdawn said.

I negotiate professionally and the last thing you need is to have your negotiation plan or strategy in the hands of the people you plan to negotiate with. It's a negotiation 101 faux pas extraordinaire !

And what exactly is unknown about out desires? Free market access and no foreigners ... that's been public knowledge for some time... ANYTHING else is dependant on those things and the EU knows those are things we want

We're not walking in with a clever trick up our sleeves, or a colony in our back pocket... the only thing we have that the EU wants is access to the UK (and possibly money). That's all they care about, and all they will care about. It's our leverage, and only asset. 

What possible secret weapon do people think we're taking into the negotiating room?

crunchman

If Parliament passes an act that says that we must try to retain access to the single market then the EU has us over a barrel as they know any threat to walk away if we don't get a good deal is completely empty.

Like it or not we have to trust the government to get the best deal possible, and they will need some flexibility to horse trade stuff.

I'm beginning to think that a general election might be the best thing at this point.  May would win with an increased majority and get Brexit through without all this idiocy.  Labour would lose badly, and the left of centre parties would be forced to go away and rethink, and hopefully come up with something credible, with some credible people leading.

randella

Heartfeltdawn said:

hywelg said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

However Hywelg is wrong. This isn't for the party's benefit. This is all for the Corbyn camp's benefit. 

You are correct however in the strict sense it is his party now!

I'd argue the case that it isn't. He is leader but he has made much of the idea that it is the membership who matter. Plans are afoot for members to decide policy direction. Certainly when you see how comments made by the deputy leader clash with those made by the leader, it suggests a party still well divided and headed by a man who operates within a very small group, as reported by other members of the party. 

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/politics/tom-watson-says-labour-will-not-block-article-50-jeremy-corbyn-suggests-will/

He's operating in a tiny group with about half a dozen people in it - I have the feeling that it's John McDonnell calling the shots too.  I have no idea what they want, is it a large protest movement with grassroots membership?  I'm not convinced he (McDonnell) wants to win an election and form a government.

This latest - Corbyn says Labour will oppose A50, despite being a lifelong eurosceptic?  What?  Watson (presumably representing the PLP) immediately says No we won't.  Corbyn backtracks.  They are an utter utter shambles.

ESBlonde

This weeks headline.

'POLITICAL LEADERS FAIL TO ORGANISE DRINKING SESSION AT LARGE BREWERY SCANDLE'.

randella

ESBlonde said:

This weeks headline.

'POLITICAL LEADERS FAIL TO ORGANISE DRINKING SESSION AT LARGE BREWERY SCANDLE'.

Aye, that about sums it up, the whole shower of them - both sides of the house.  It's like watching a chimps' tea party.

DarnWeight

Labour's current position looks like one designed not to "spook" any Tories who may vote with them on A50 amendments when (if?) it goes before parliament.  If they make all the right noises with regards not opposing A50, they're more likely to have success getting the sizeable portion of Tories who favour a softer Brexit on their side.  Keir Starmer seems to be making this argument far better than either Corbyn or Watson, so they should either leave it to him, or make sure they're all effectively communicating the same message.

Like someone said earlier, I don't think there are any surprises in what we're after...free movement controls, single market access...so to keep on publicly denying these is pointless and counter productive, and will only harden opposition to accepting A50 carte blanche from diehard Remainers.

randella

DarnWeight said:

Keir Starmer seems to be making this argument far better than either Corbyn or Watson, so they should either leave it to him, or make sure they're all effectively communicating the same message.

I'm keeping one eye on Keir Starmer, he's been in politics about five minutes and already he's proving a more effective voice than the rest of the shadow front bench put together.  Corbyn rattles off the last thing McDonnell and Seamus Milne have filled his head with which 75% of the time seems to directly oppose the party line.  The PLP have to then come out of their hideyhole and tell the papers the leader's talking bollocks again, please disregard. 

It's painful to watch but Starmer seems to be the one holding it together.  He's rapidly growing on me.

Fretwired

Never mind what Corbyn thinks. May has to talk to the EU about the rules of engagement. This will take longer than two years - they should have an agreement in place now to extend the time required and maybe have a transition period while the finer details are worked out. We also need to know what happens if parliament votes against the deal - can we remain in the EU. This is needed to stop the markets from getting spooked - the EU has as much to lose as the UK.

randella

Fretwired said:

Never mind what Corbyn thinks.

Brexit is the biggest political upheaval in how long?  Certainly decades.  Her Majesty's official opposition is there to provide checks and balances and ensure that one 'side' doesn't run rampant and things like this are carried out fairly and justly.

So yeah, I do kinda mind what Corbyn thinks, as like or not he's the leader of said opposition.  Unfortunately, he's been pretty much shtum since the cult re-elected him and, on the odd occasion when the muse strikes him and the soppy old duffer can be bothered interrupting his jam making to make one of his prognostications of doom, I generally wish he'd not bothered.

Fretwired

randella said:

Fretwired said:

Never mind what Corbyn thinks.

Brexit is the biggest political upheaval in how long?  Certainly decades.  Her Majesty's official opposition is there to provide checks and balances and ensure that one 'side' doesn't run rampant and things like this are carried out fairly and justly.

So yeah, I do kinda mind what Corbyn thinks, as like or not he's the leader of said opposition.  Unfortunately, he's been pretty much shtum since the cult re-elected him and, on the odd occasion when the muse strikes him and the soppy old duffer can be bothered interrupting his jam making to make one of his prognostications of doom, I generally wish he'd not bothered.

You missed my point - the press are all over Corbyn. It's irrelevant at this stage as May needs to think this through and get some rules of engagement agreed with the EU. This won't take 2 years - nearer 10 IMHO. We probably need a slow transition out or we leave immediately and become an associate member - we keep are rights to market access etc but are not involved in the day to day running of the EU - giving both sides the space to negotiate exit without being under pressure.

randella

Fretwired said:

randella said:

Fretwired said:

Never mind what Corbyn thinks.

Brexit is the biggest political upheaval in how long?  Certainly decades.  Her Majesty's official opposition is there to provide checks and balances and ensure that one 'side' doesn't run rampant and things like this are carried out fairly and justly.

So yeah, I do kinda mind what Corbyn thinks, as like or not he's the leader of said opposition.  Unfortunately, he's been pretty much shtum since the cult re-elected him and, on the odd occasion when the muse strikes him and the soppy old duffer can be bothered interrupting his jam making to make one of his prognostications of doom, I generally wish he'd not bothered.

You missed my point - the press are all over Corbyn. It's irrelevant at this stage as May needs to think this through and get some rules of engagement agreed with the EU. This won't take 2 years - nearer 10 IMHO. We probably need a slow transition out or we leave immediately and become an associate member - we keep are rights to market access etc but are not involved in the day to day running of the EU - giving both sides the space to negotiate exit without being under pressure.

 @Fretwired - fully appreciate the point, wis'd it in fact as it makes a lot of sense to me.

Was really just using it as a springboard to have a cheap pop at Jez if I'm honest.

ESBlonde

Whilst we give the 650+ elected polititions a voice so they can puff up thier chests for thier constituents, the other 96.42% of this negotiating field will be lining up to have a pop at the UK when they get over to the Haig or wherever the negotiations will take place. that the government will be held to account is correct, that they are truely going to dictate the terms to the other member states is quite laughable. Yes we have strengths, but the other EU states will be very keen to ensure the UK is seen as 'punished' for leaving the club as a disincentive to any other member states contemplating the same.