Quitting the UK

ICBM

quarky said:

ICBM said:

quarky said:

Interestingly, I wonder if Japan copes better because it doesn't have such a huge continual.population growth to place strain on Infrastructure and services? Nah, can't be.

They have almost exactly twice the population we do (127 million vs 64 million), and a far higher population density (336 vs 263 per km2).

(Source: http://statisticstimes.com/population/countries-by-population-density.php )

So why does population have anything to do with it other than an excuse to blame immigration for all the UK's problems?

When you have a static (or even shrinking) population, it is (I would argue) easier to deal with from an infrastructure point of view, than when you are constantly having to increase capacity, just to stand still. And it doesn't have to be immigration, their birth rates have been falling (I think). Nice try at a strawman though

 Strawman? You were explicitly blaming population growth for putting strain on infrastructure and services .

It's absolutely true that poor management of immigration is a problem - both geographically and by a lack of investment in infrastructure - but population growth per se is not the problem. We would need a population of well over 80 million to equal the density of Japan. Like the UK, Japan also has large areas in the north with very low population density, so it's comparable in that way too.

In fact the population in Scotland is *falling*, and this is a significant issue for economic growth and tax revenue - so if you think there are too many immigrants where you are, please ask them to move up here . In my opinion not providing incentives to do that is a failure of the UK government and is largely responsible for the idea that there are too many immigrants - because it's certainly true that it's the impression you get if you live in the south-east.

exocet

monquixote said:

quarky said:

When you have a static (or even shrinking) population, it is (I would argue) easier to deal with from an infrastructure point of view, than when you are constantly having to increase capacity, just to stand still. And it doesn't have to be immigration, their birth rates have been falling (I think). Nice try at a strawman though

A shrinking population is terrible because you end up with a retired population and no one to pay for their care. That's as big a problem as immigration here but no one will deal with it because old people vote.

Very true and it's this very issue that Japan is struggling to deal with. 
I live just outside the M25 in Kent. It is busy but I still maintain that we have plenty of space in this country. In many ways, it's easier to provide services (public transport and healthcare) where population density is higher. I still maintain that the UK suffers because of our inability to make decisions on infrastructure; what to build, where to put it and which financing model to adopt. 

My sister lives in Denmark, she moved there straight after graduation with no financial support and was able to set herself up with an extremely nice apartment in Copenhagen. Her rent was ridiculously low by UK standards and she was able to raise a family (2 children) in relative comfort. Education has been top notch and public transport is fantastic both in the city and trains between cities. I can understand why many people cite the "Scandinavian economic model" as being something to aspire two. I'm far from convinced that overall taxation in Denmark for typical employees is much different to us in the UK, it may be a little higher but not significantly so and yet they appear to get so much back from the state in terms of public services. There appears to be less of a difference between the richest and poorest in Denmark which appears to leave the majority quite content.

ICBM

exocet said:

monquixote said:

A shrinking population is terrible because you end up with a retired population and no one to pay for their care. That's as big a problem as immigration here but no one will deal with it because old people vote.

Very true and it's this very issue that Japan is struggling to deal with. 
I live just outside the M25 in Kent. It is busy but I still maintain that we have plenty of space in this country. In many ways, it's easier to provide services (public transport and healthcare) where population density is higher. I still maintain that the UK suffers because of our inability to make decisions on infrastructure; what to build, where to put it and which financing model to adopt. 

Precisely.

Jeremiah

I quite fancy Finland, though my friend was actually mugged when he went there.
His comment: "I prefer the muggers in Helsinki to the commuters in London, and even after I was robbed I still lost less money than I would have paid for the train fare in the UK."

FRockStar

FelineGuitars said:

I wanted to move to LA about 15 years ago , till I pent time there and got a fuller picture.
I liked the nightlife and music scene where it still existed
It was the crazy traffic and gun culture that were initial put-offs, and the crazy care of medicine and healthcare
I had to see a dentist there because I broke a tooth - I would have needed a mortgage just to afford a filling it seems, so I just waited till I got back to UK.

And then there's the tea. 

thomasross20

Fretwired said:

I worked in Denmark for a few years and love Copenhagen - safe city, low crime, they only work a 35 hour week and have long holidays and a good health and education system. Don't go there if you like performance cars as the tax on new cars is very high and income tax is high but public services are very good. You don't really need a car - excellent cycle lanes and tram/bus system.

My wife and I have thought about leaving - we'd probably go to Boston. Worked there for a while and love the city.

Sounds great!

thomasross20

FelineGuitars said:

I wanted to move to LA about 15 years ago , till I pent time there and got a fuller picture.
I liked the nightlife and music scene where it still existed
It was the crazy traffic and gun culture that were initial put-offs, and the crazy care of medicine and healthcare
I had to see a dentist there because I broke a tooth - I would have needed a mortgage just to afford a filling it seems, so I just waited till I got back to UK.

This is why I'd like this job with trips over there, just not to move there!

thomasross20

AustrianJohn said:

thomasross20 said:

We have two Japanese engineers at work now and both will never go back. Much better life here. 

I always fancied Australia. A better bet might be a job opportunity I have where I can stay here and go to California 1-2 months of the year. I always fancied Germany/Austria.. though one guy was telling me Austrians aren't the most friendly.

We've lived in Austria for 7 years and had no trouble settling in and integrating - the Austrians are very friendly. We live in a small town in the mountains near Kitzbuhel, perhaps it's different in Vienna. Only problem here is the language, which is too complicated for my simple brain - but most people speak English if you really struggle.

The quality of healthcare here is similar to the UK, but without the waiting lists. There are three times as many doctors per head here than in the UK.

I've been up the kitzbuhel
The town I was thinking of is Graz. I declined at the time but there are loads of semiconductor companies there.

RaymondLin

Copenhagen is a lovely place, I went there in around February time, it wasn't too cold, it felt really safe to walk around, i was by myself and as said before, everybody cycles and if you live in the city, its not a problem, all the roads are designed around bicycles.

thomasross20

ToneControl said:

The grass is always greener.  Strangely many people from around the world want to come and live in the UK . Perhaps they are all deluded.  

I'd hate to live in Dublin
all the problems of London x 2 for house prices plus congestion, but only 25% of the  nightlife of Manchester

Stockholm seemed very boring when I visited. You must be very  wealthy to be able to up sticks to Dublin or Stockholm

Once you get out of the  frankly awful (congestion and costs) London bubble, quality of life improves drastically in the UK

Life in and around Edinburgh is pretty good!

martinw

Bye.

Emp_Fab

thomasross20 said:

I've been up the kitzbuhel

I know... your missus told my missus.  Women tell each other everything.

Emp_Fab

RaymondLin said:

The ironic thing is that the places that voted leave has the lowest percentage of immigrants in their area (like remote areas in Wales).  Where as counties with the highest percentage of immigrants voted stay, like London.  

That's 'cos all the bleedin' immigrants voted to stay innit !  More immigrants means more remain votes dunnit.  Stands to bloody reason, you silly moo.

quarky

ICBM said:

 Strawman? You were explicitly blaming population growth for putting strain on infrastructure and services .

It's absolutely true that poor management of immigration is a problem - both geographically and by a lack of investment in infrastructure - but population growth per se is not the problem. We would need a population of well over 80 million to equal the density of Japan. Like the UK, Japan also has large areas in the north with very low population density, so it's comparable in that way too.

In fact the population in Scotland is *falling*, and this is a significant issue for economic growth and tax revenue - so if you think there are too many immigrants where you are, please ask them to move up here . In my opinion not providing incentives to do that is a failure of the UK government and is largely responsible for the idea that there are too many immigrants - because it's certainly true that it's the impression you get if you live in the south-east.

Strawman, because I didn't mention immigration, I just mentioned an increasing population

On a serious note though, you are comparing population growth with density too. Both can cause problems, but yes, it is management that is problem and the faster the population grows, the harder it is to manage. And I suspect our population could easily be 80m in 30 years.

Many EU countries like Germany, Spain, Italy, and other are also struggling (like Japan) to increase their population at all (hence the German fuck up over migration policy), but we certainly don't have that problem.

I must admit, some remote house in the Highlands sounds bloody appealing at times. I assume I can get a phone and the Internet up there?

RaymondLin

Emp_Fab said:

RaymondLin said:

The ironic thing is that the places that voted leave has the lowest percentage of immigrants in their area (like remote areas in Wales).  Where as counties with the highest percentage of immigrants voted stay, like London.  

That's 'cos all the bleedin' immigrants voted to stay innit !  More immigrants means more remain votes dunnit.  Stands to bloody reason, you silly moo.

Ha, I KNEW you say something like that.

1st - you don't know these immigrants actually voted and 2, even though there are MORE, the percentage is a FRACTION of the overall population, less than enough to affect the voting results you silly billy.

Take London, wasn't it like 75% voted remain?  do you really think there are like 25% of immigrants in London? 

Use your brain.

ICBM

quarky said:

I must admit, some remote house in the Highlands sounds bloody appealing at times. I assume I can get a phone and the Internet up there?

Phone yes. Decent high-speed internet access can be a problem. That's a definite problem with low population density, as mentioned earlier.

But seriously, Scotland really does need and would welcome immigrants.

Roland

Having lived and worked in a number of countries I can tell you that the grass always looks greener in the next field. Whenever I've worked abroad I've enjoyed the local pleasures, but not as much as I've enjoyed living here.

thomasross20

Emp_Fab said:

thomasross20 said:

I've been up the kitzbuhel

I know... your missus told my missus.  Women tell each other everything.

Evilmags

Denmark and Norway are seriously dull and expensive. How many languages do you speak. *I must admit monoglotal remoaners are highly amusing(.

iain.reverb

exocet said:

monquixote said:

quarky said:

When you have a static (or even shrinking) population, it is (I would argue) easier to deal with from an infrastructure point of view, than when you are constantly having to increase capacity, just to stand still. And it doesn't have to be immigration, their birth rates have been falling (I think). Nice try at a strawman though

A shrinking population is terrible because you end up with a retired population and no one to pay for their care. That's as big a problem as immigration here but no one will deal with it because old people vote.

Very true and it's this very issue that Japan is struggling to deal with. 
I live just outside the M25 in Kent. It is busy but I still maintain that we have plenty of space in this country. In many ways, it's easier to provide services (public transport and healthcare) where population density is higher. I still maintain that the UK suffers because of our inability to make decisions on infrastructure; what to build, where to put it and which financing model to adopt. 

My sister lives in Denmark, she moved there straight after graduation with no financial support and was able to set herself up with an extremely nice apartment in Copenhagen. Her rent was ridiculously low by UK standards and she was able to raise a family (2 children) in relative comfort. Education has been top notch and public transport is fantastic both in the city and trains between cities. I can understand why many people cite the "Scandinavian economic model" as being something to aspire two. I'm far from convinced that overall taxation in Denmark for typical employees is much different to us in the UK, it may be a little higher but not significantly so and yet they appear to get so much back from the state in terms of public services. There appears to be less of a difference between the richest and poorest in Denmark which appears to leave the majority quite content.

I was out in Denmark the other month for work at the Copenhagen guitar show. The city is an absolute wonder of cleanliness civility and is just incredibly well thought out. You can see a real care has been taken in the urban planning. The downside is how eye wateringly expensive everything is. I'm worried I'm going to be dragged over the coals when I submit my expenses report!  I got chatting to an Uber driver while I was there. He was a young guy from Romania. We were chatting about jobs etc. He had made the switch from working in Greece as a loader for UPS for 600 Euro per month, to working for Uber in Copenhagen in the evenings and nights while he studied. He is clearing over £5000 per month and recieves a stipend from the Danish government for being a student. He pays over 50% in taxes, but for that he gets free education free healthcare and great free kindergarten for his kids.
I balked at the 50% tax band at first but when you actually measure what you get back in return that's a phenomenal deal.  I don't have children but I have friends that do and I know that they are paying between £300 and £500 per week for childcare to enable them to work full time to pay 30% of their salary in tax and to pay off student loans and their childcare costs. It seems that a lot of people here in the UK are working hard just to keep their heads above water.