Quitting the UK

Philly_Q

RaymondLin said:

Take London, wasn't it like 75% voted remain?  do you really think there are like 25% of immigrants in London? 

I say this not to support one position or another, but according to the 2011 census - says Wikipedia - 36.7% of the population of London were born outside the UK (and 24.5% were born outside of Europe).

digitalscream

Fretwired said:

I worked in Denmark for a few years and love Copenhagen - safe city, low crime, they only work a 35 hour week and have long holidays and a good health and education system. Don't go there if you like performance cars as the tax on new cars is very high and income tax is high but public services are very good. You don't really need a car - excellent cycle lanes and tram/bus system.

I realise you already know this, but it's a mistake a lot of people make - "don't go there, the tax is too high". Sure, the tax is much higher than it is here, but so is the take-home pay. In fact, they take home 40% more than we do on average.

I last came across that argument when I worked for a Norwegian company and had to go out there quite often. They also have higher tax than us, but they take home 60% more than we do.

I dearly wish I wasn't so shit with languages, because we'd love to live in Norway. The only downside, as far as I can tell, is that there aren't any ugly people there. I saw one fat dude in the whole time I spent in Norway, and he was a long-term hospital resident. I'm sure I'd feel a little uncomfortable.

richardhomer

octatonic said:
Any idea of where?

We are pretty happy to have done it.

Not sure - I might relocate to a completely different part of the country. I think a really dramatic change may be the way to go....

ThePrettyDamned

RaymondLin said:

Copenhagen is a lovely place, I went there in around February time, it wasn't too cold, it felt really safe to walk around, i was by myself and as said before, everybody cycles and if you live in the city, its not a problem, all the roads are designed around bicycles.

You know, the very first three things I noticed when I visited a couple of years back where the *visibly* cleaner air (seriously!), the noise (or lack of) and how friendly the people were. 

Expensive though, iirc. But lovely. 

robgilmo

Why are people so quick to blame all this countries problems on immigration? Isnt our corrupt government and the widening gap between rich and poor more of a problem? A few immigrants come into our country and there is an uproar yet large companies get away with kazillions by dodging tax and no one gives a fuck? really? Its not very obvious that our government owned/funded media is fuelling a smoke screen for the sheep now is it? 

robgilmo

By the way, Holland is an ace place to live, I lived there for 7 years and if it wasn't for the fact I have kids now I'd be back out there in an instant.

LordOxygen

I've not long got back from a work trip to the Far East, Started in Japan (Osaka) 6 countries later I returned home from Bangkok. The UK looks shabby and run down in comparison and it pains me to say but collectively we're a bunch of miserable looking people. If I had the means and life circumstance allowed it I would emigrate. Seoul Osaka and Bangkok I miss you.

digitalscream

robgilmo said:

Why are people so quick to blame all this countries problems on immigration? Isnt our corrupt government and the widening gap between rich and poor more of a problem? A few immigrants come into our country and there is an uproar yet large companies get away with kazillions by dodging tax and no one gives a fuck? really? Its not very obvious that our government owned/funded media is fuelling a smoke screen for the sheep now is it? 

I'd say it's more the culture itself, which insists on blaming somebody (else) instead of everyone taking responsibility for having made things shit, and correspondingly taking responsibility for making it better.

ThePrettyDamned

digitalscream said:

robgilmo said:

Why are people so quick to blame all this countries problems on immigration? Isnt our corrupt government and the widening gap between rich and poor more of a problem? A few immigrants come into our country and there is an uproar yet large companies get away with kazillions by dodging tax and no one gives a fuck? really? Its not very obvious that our government owned/funded media is fuelling a smoke screen for the sheep now is it? 

I'd say it's more the culture itself, which insists on blaming somebody (else) instead of everyone taking responsibility for having made things shit, and correspondingly taking responsibility for making it better.

Bang On. 

This Is LiterallY Why I Left my Last Job. There Is A Revulsion to Responsibility Here. 

monquixote

What makes you assume other countries will want a bunch of whiny brits?

Emp_Fab

RaymondLin said:

Emp_Fab said:

RaymondLin said:

The ironic thing is that the places that voted leave has the lowest percentage of immigrants in their area (like remote areas in Wales).  Where as counties with the highest percentage of immigrants voted stay, like London.  

That's 'cos all the bleedin' immigrants voted to stay innit !  More immigrants means more remain votes dunnit.  Stands to bloody reason, you silly moo.

Ha, I KNEW you say something like that.

1st - you don't know these immigrants actually voted and 2, even though there are MORE, the percentage is a FRACTION of the overall population, less than enough to affect the voting results you silly billy.

Take London, wasn't it like 75% voted remain?  do you really think there are like 25% of immigrants in London? 

Use your brain.

Oh don't be soft.  It was a joke man.  Of course the percentage of immigrants is a very small fraction of the population - even in London.  I know that.  Hence Alf Garnett saying it.  Use your sense of humour.

p90fool

richardhomer said:

octatonic said:
Any idea of where?

We are pretty happy to have done it.

Not sure - I might relocate to a completely different part of the country. I think a really dramatic change may be the way to go....

Come to Radnorshire, seriously. 

Moe_Zambeek

Interestingly some of the Scandinavian countries are starting to rethink some of their social welfare policies; Denmark in particular.

Research seems to indicate that the provision of significant benefits without a need to contribute has eroded the social structures that made their countries successful in the first place. There is a belief that the original Scandinavian traits of hard work and community spirit (the needs of the many being more important than the individual) is suffering as the need to value community to ensure collective survival disappears. As a result they are starting to clamp down on benefits and immigration-without-contribution before the states go bankrupt and their historic social values are eradicated.

Denmark still rates as one of the best places to live despite high living costs reducing disposable income - it is low there compared to some countries - and the latest research indicates that the reason Danes are happy is that...Danes are happy, intrinsically. Moving there won't change your genetics

capo4th

If you lived in London you would understand the strain that immigration is putting on the resources of the UK 

Schools - increasing class sizes and language barriers
Roads
Hospitals
Public transport
NHS hospitals 
Doctors surgerys
Decreasing wages and quality of life for U.K. Workers
increasing benefits bill subsidising these people
Translation costs to local councils
Lack of quality housing 
increasing house prices
pressure on community's lack of integration in society
Increase in crime
Movement of criminals in the U.K. who are these people why did we let them in? 
those are just off the top of my head.

I appreciate there are some positive effects to the UK and the economy.

We need some serious changes in our border controls.

p90fool

Yet there's one thing that Londoners will never understand, that almost everyone doesn't live there. 

No matter how incredible that may seem to you, most of us don't give a shit, and are tired of national policy being dictated by what goes on there. 

quarky

capo4th said:

If you lived in London you would understand the strain that immigration is putting on the resources of the UK 

Schools - increasing class sizes and language barriers
Roads
Hospitals
Public transport
NHS hospitals 
Doctors surgerys
Decreasing wages and quality of life for U.K. Workers
increasing benefits bill subsidising these people
Translation costs to local councils
Lack of quality housing 
increasing house prices
pressure on community's lack of integration in society
Increase in crime
Movement of criminals in the U.K. who are these people why did we let them in? 
those are just off the top of my head.

I appreciate there are some positive effects to the UK and the economy.

We need some serious changes in our border controls.

A lot of those are not just London issues.

Trying to see a GP where I live is practically impossible. I typically need to threaten to just wait for an out-of-hours surgery or go straight to A&E before they will let me make a same day appointment. I know my doctor's name, but I couldn't even recognise him. I seem to get a different doctor every time I have ever been in.

I get a 0615 train in the morning, and still sometimes struggle to get a seat because of the number of people, despite the enormous fare increases. Trying to get home from the station takes me about twice as long as it did ten years ago. Of course bad road planning hasn't helped there, but there definitely seems to be a lot more traffic on the road.

As for housing costs, that really needs no comment. Anyone who thinks ever increasing house prices are a good thing needs their head examined. As does anyone who thinks an ever increasing population doesn't add strain these things. As if supply and demand is just some kind of fairy story. I am just thankful I bought years ago, and will be in a position to help my kids onto the ladder.

ToneControl

ICBM said:

quarky said:

Interestingly, I wonder if Japan copes better because it doesn't have such a huge continual.population growth to place strain on Infrastructure and services? Nah, can't be.

They have almost exactly twice the population we do (127 million vs 64 million), and a far higher population density (336 vs 263 per km2).

(Source: http://statisticstimes.com/population/countries-by-population-density.php )

So why does population have anything to do with it other than an excuse to blame immigration for all the UK's problems?

I  used to be more wary of opposition to immigration, but I have seen it do harm in the UK and elsewhere.
I've probably said it before, but I've never heard my dear old aunty say  anything  unkind about anyone, but she once said  that her home town was now unrecognisable,  and that was a bit of a watershed for me, I realised that  people don't have to "like" immigration,  even if they are not racist, it does disrupt  in proportion with the rate of immigration, and the diversity of the cultures. At present with migration from  the EU, it's more numbers than massive cultural differences, which will affect  services: less so where I live, but definitely in London.  Having said that, I don't think  immigration is the root cause of all the UK's problems, but people need to stop sweeping it under the carpet, it does  trouble people

Anyway, I liked your comparison,  but suspected that Japan was not  a big target for migrants,  and it seems I was right:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Japan#Foreign_residents
2.2m foreign residents in Japan in 2015
1.75% of population

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-born_population_of_the_United_Kingdom
Foreign born = 8m in the UK in 2011, that's 12.7%

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-an-overview/
Foreign born in UK in  2014 =  13.1%
more than doubled in 20 years
3m foreign born live in London alone

so  more than 1 in 8  people in the UK are foreign-born 
in Japan it's   1 in 57

So I think we should be considering rate of immigration,  
and at a social level - diversity and assimilation - which varies a lot from one immigrant group to another
For example,  Englishmen in Scotland can fit in pretty well if they don't use certain trigger words ;-) 

robgilmo

capo4th said:

If you lived in London you would understand the strain that immigration is putting on the resources of the UK 

Schools - increasing class sizes and language barriers
Roads
Hospitals
Public transport
NHS hospitals 
Doctors surgerys
Decreasing wages and quality of life for U.K. Workers
increasing benefits bill subsidising these people
Translation costs to local councils
Lack of quality housing 
increasing house prices
pressure on community's lack of integration in society
Increase in crime
Movement of criminals in the U.K. who are these people why did we let them in? 
those are just off the top of my head.

I appreciate there are some positive effects to the UK and the economy.

We need some serious changes in our border controls.

I live out in the sticks , we don't have that problem, however  most people here blatantly think we do and are quite happy to voice their miss guided opinions on how much of a massive immigration problem they face every day. Google stop funding hate, it's a start to learning some truth.

thebreeze

capo4th said:

If you lived in London you would understand the strain that immigration is putting on the resources of the UK 

Schools - increasing class sizes and language barriers
Roads
Hospitals
Public transport
NHS hospitals 
Doctors surgerys
Decreasing wages and quality of life for U.K. Workers
increasing benefits bill subsidising these people
Translation costs to local councils
Lack of quality housing 
increasing house prices
pressure on community's lack of integration in society
Increase in crime
Movement of criminals in the U.K. who are these people why did we let them in? 
those are just off the top of my head.

I appreciate there are some positive effects to the UK and the economy.

We need some serious changes in our border controls.

I think all of these things are complex and multi-faceted issues and you might want to take a step back before lumping all the problems within these very diverse areas/sectors at the convenient door of "immigration". 

One could very easily argue the problem with schools is the gross underinvestment by consecutive governments and their lack of ability in creating a decent, fair education system for all.  Busy roads you could blame on affluence and underinvestment/poor planning, NHS - an ageing population etc etc.

Depending on what sort of society you want to live in you could argue that you don't want people to be able to move around and work in places other than where they're born but "immigration" plays a very, very small part in creating problems in any of these areas - the NHS would fold overnight if it weren't for "immigration" for example.  (I put "immigration" in inverted commas because I don't know whether this includes numbers of UK nationals going abroad, EU citizens coming, people from certain countries only etc.)

ToneControl

RaymondLin said:

Emp_Fab said:

RaymondLin said:

The ironic thing is that the places that voted leave has the lowest percentage of immigrants in their area (like remote areas in Wales).  Where as counties with the highest percentage of immigrants voted stay, like London.  

That's 'cos all the bleedin' immigrants voted to stay innit !  More immigrants means more remain votes dunnit.  Stands to bloody reason, you silly moo.

Ha, I KNEW you say something like that.

1st - you don't know these immigrants actually voted and 2, even though there are MORE, the percentage is a FRACTION of the overall population, less than enough to affect the voting results you silly billy.

Take London, wasn't it like 75% voted remain?  do you really think there are like 25% of immigrants in London? 

Use your brain.

At the 2011 census, 36.7% of London's population was foreign born (including 24.5% born outside of Europe). With 3,082,000 residents born abroad in 2014. London has the largest population number (not percentage) of foreign-born

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_London