Berlin lorry attack

joeyowen

A lot of people will prefer to blame someone who isn't white by default. Lack of education 

Babones

What is worrying however, is that the person is on the loose.

Evilmags

joeyowen said:

A lot of people will prefer to blame someone who isn't white by default. Lack of education 

What has being white got to do with Islamic terrorism. Belief systems and race are nothing to do with each other. Twited leftist ideology that does not stand up to any rational analysis. Islamist terrorists come in every colour and race  on the planet and a fair few are actually white. It would be frankly astonishing if the German attack was not related to Islamism, and common sense would dictate that assuming otherwise is like assuming the earth is flat. 

ICBM

Daesh has claimed it. While you can't be sure, they don't actually have a track record of claiming things they didn't do.

CabbageCat

Evilmags said:

It would be frankly astonishing if the German attack was not related to Islamism, and common sense would dictate that assuming otherwise is like assuming the earth is flat. 

Assuming anything is stupid. If the authorities assumed it was Daesh then it would give license for assorted unaffiliated nutters to wreak havok with impunity.

mixolyd

Evilmags said:

joeyowen said:

A lot of people will prefer to blame someone who isn't white by default. Lack of education 

What has being white got to do with Islamic terrorism. Belief systems and race are nothing to do with each other. Twited leftist ideology that does not stand up to any rational analysis. Islamist terrorists come in every colour and race  on the planet and a fair few are actually white. It would be frankly astonishing if the German attack was not related to Islamism, and common sense would dictate that assuming otherwise is like assuming the earth is flat. 

Yep: mowing down the Kuffar using stolen trucks is textbook Islamist procedure, not commonly seen from anyone else.

As for the pathetic bleating about "how can people do this" it would help if people would learn about Islam before wading in to blame "people" for this kind of thing.  The perpetrators believe that they are doing something good, very good.  For doing God's work and bringing everyone on this Earth closer to Paradise, they are doing something more virtuous than can be described.  This is what they believe, even if that seems very difficult for the liberal secular mind to conceive.

littlegreenman

ICBM said:

Daesh has claimed it. While you can't be sure, they don't actually have a track record of claiming things they didn't do.

True, but they certainly don't distance themselves from anything that might be in their name. A win for them either way.

And that's part of the problem. If anyone, anywhere, does anything, how can we be sure who's responsible? The individual, for sure if they're caught. The larger organisation? Who knows?

Anyone can do this stuff and say it's Daesh, or Hezbollah, Britain First, Front National or anyone else. It's a field day for fanatics.

HAL9000

ToneControl said:

HAL9000 said:

ICBM said:

Placidcasual79 said:

Terrible news. So shocking. To think innocent people out doing Christmas shopping and not coming home...... so sad. These tragedies are becoming so common. Its important not to become complacent or desensitised.  

But equally it's important not to let them change our way of life. That's what they want.

But it's already changed our way of life. I can't go to the airport without getting my shoes x-rayed and my aftershave confiscated. I have to have my bags searched at museums and gigs etc. I can't go into town without my every move being recorded on CCTV, and now the Welsh ambulance service wants to be able to check my browsing history.

check your home browsing history?

Yes indeed. Under the proposed 'snoopers charter' there are all sorts of groups that will be able to look at your internet history. Apart from the obvious people such as the police and security services, there are others such as the Food Standards Agency, various ambulance services, etc, erc.

ToneControl

We need to apply Occam's razor
It's either a false flag operation, or it's some Jihadi nutter or wannabe killing people
Given the events of the last 12 months,  why would anyone feel motivated  to expose themselves to staging a false flag operation,, when a bonafide Jihadi  massacre happens in the EU every 2-3 months? Therefore very likely to be a genuine  Jihadi-inspired attack

For me,  the scary thing is seeing this sort of thing in Northern Ireland already:
2 tribes,   repeated killings of one tribe  motivates the most  warlike in the  other tribe to reciprocate
Rinse and repeat for decades
Typically 10% of each tribe in Northern Ireland  endorsed/supported/excused the  killers
I heard these  sentiments first hand

For me, that  10% is enough to keep  "troubles" going on  indefinitely, until  we have a watershed like an Enniskillen. Personally , I don't think  a watershed is possible  with fundamentalism of any kind

It's a known fact that a similar proportion  of the Muslim "tribe" support ISIS
20% of Syrians support ISIS
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/15/one-in-five-syrians-say-islamic-state-is-a-good-thing-poll-says/?utm_term=.69f45bbed4b3

37% of Syrian refugees opposed airstrikes on ISIS:
http://english.dohainstitute.org/file/Get/40ebdf12-8960-4d18-8088-7c8a077e522e

many countries range from  5-20%
https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2015/12/08/16/isis-support-muslims.jpg

https://newrepublic.com/article/119857/polls-middle-east-about-islamic-state-have-surprising-results
5% of Saudis
3% of Egyptians
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-66df29d02e50457afae168f300e189ab-c?convert_to_webp=true

so, the point of all this is:
I can't see this going away
and:  I think  we'll start to see  reprisal attacks from right-wing extremists in the next 12-24 months
If I'm right, It's not going to be  something that can be  dismissed with a narrative in the press, it will be  full-on sectarianism, with  more martyrs and  mass killings than we have  seen before, look at how easily lorries beat what the IRA ever  achieved.  As soon as this kind of martyrdom is an option, a new paradigm is created

I'm pretty despondent

CabbageCat

ToneControl said:
...

I'm pretty despondent

I'm sure ISIS would be delighted to hear it.

ToneControl

CabbageCat said:

ToneControl said:
...

I'm pretty despondent

I'm sure ISIS would be delighted to hear it.

I won't tell them

littlegreenman

ToneControl said:

CabbageCat said:

ToneControl said:
...

I'm pretty despondent

I'm sure ISIS would be delighted to hear it.

I won't tell them

On a public forum, that mentions ISIS and the Berlin attack? You probably already have

ToneControl

littlegreenman said:

ToneControl said:

CabbageCat said:

ToneControl said:
...

I'm pretty despondent

I'm sure ISIS would be delighted to hear it.

I won't tell them

On a public forum, that mentions ISIS and the Berlin attack? You probably already have

get it onto SC, quickly

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Daesh has claimed it. While you can't be sure, they don't actually have a track record of claiming things they didn't do.

Oh please. They have a track record in claiming attacks about which they know nothing. This attack has all the trademarks of a loner - the Germany security services have no idea and very few leads. Daesh leaks information - the organisation is close to collapse and is desperate to prove it has reach into Europe. Don't give these fanatics oxygen. There's no proof.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

Daesh has claimed it. While you can't be sure, they don't actually have a track record of claiming things they didn't do.

Oh please. They have a track record in claiming attacks about which they know nothing.

Actually they don't.

Fretwired said:

This attack has all the trademarks of a loner - the Germany security services have no idea and very few leads.

So what? That doesn't in any way make it less likely that the perpetrator was known by Daesh.

Fretwired said:

Don't give these fanatics oxygen.

Don't accuse me of that. Whether they did or didn't have anything to do with it.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

Daesh has claimed it. While you can't be sure, they don't actually have a track record of claiming things they didn't do.

Oh please. They have a track record in claiming attacks about which they know nothing.

Actually they don't.

Fretwired said:

This attack has all the trademarks of a loner - the Germany security services have no idea and very few leads.

So what? That doesn't in any way make it less likely that the perpetrator was known by Daesh.

Fretwired said:

Don't give these fanatics oxygen.

Don't accuse me of that. Whether they did or didn't have anything to do with it.

I don't know where to begin. There are quite a few attacks IS claimed responsibility for which turned out to be loners - were they influenced by IS - possibly - were they controlled by them? No. The fact 'Daesh only claim attacks for which they are responsible' is bollocks as they don't have a coherent terrorist network. There are fragmented groups and loners who decide to act - they are not part of some big terrorist organisation under Daesh control. Source: CIA. Check out the attacks in the US. Daesh claimed responsibility but the CIA could find no evidence. Local Islamic nutters who were happy to swear allegiance after the event but had no connection to the organisation - they weren't trained, armed or funded.

I have got into countless arguments tonight with idiots blaming migrants. Most of the deaths in Europe from 7/7 onwards were not carried out by migrants but by local people. Fact.

Every time Daesh is mentioned is gives them oxygen - it encourages other idiots to do stupid things in the name of religion. The organisation is on it's knees and is virtually broke. People need to stop promoting their propaganda. The German security services and CIA have said there is currently no evidence to support their claims so why claim they were responsible when there's no evidence?

ICBM

Fretwired said:

I don't know where to begin. There are quite a few attacks IS claimed responsibility for which turned out to be loners - were they influenced by IS - possibly - were they controlled by them? No. The fact 'Daesh only claim attacks for which they are responsible' is bollocks as they don't have a coherent terrorist network. There are fragmented groups and loners who decide to act - they are not part of some big terrorist organisation under Daesh control. 

They don't need to be. That's part of their strategy as you should well know - it makes them hard to fight. They can essentially raise recruits remotely to act autonomously, either as small groups or individuals.

Fretwired said:

Every time Daesh is mentioned is gives them oxygen - it encourages other idiots to do stupid things in the name of religion. The organisation is on it's knees and is virtually broke. People need to stop promoting their propaganda. The German security services and CIA have said there is currently no evidence to support their claims so why claim they were responsible when there's no evidence?

Being aware of who you're fighting and how they inspire their followers does not "give them oxygen".

ToneControl

When faced with Daesh/Jihadi attacks in Europe, I think that the old-school rhetoric about  "not giving terrorists the oxygen of publicity",  and expecting  the format of  organised paramilitary groups are now both inapplicable. This is not the 1970s , the threat is not from an old-school IRA.

The German media, and  the most  tolerant  refugee/immigrant/minority-friendly press  in the UK and elsewhere can  use whatever narrative they wish, but it will not change the outcome I think:  

If  the attacks on  innocent civilians by loners using lorries, or more  weapon-based  killings continue on a  more and more frequent basis, the press & TV will not be  capable of  sustaining a widely-accepted narrative  about  these being  rare extremist events, unrelated to  all the nice normal  Muslims.
Many people will see these events as attacks by the Muslim tribe against the secular/Christian tribe.  
We already know  what happens next, we've seen it in many countries.
 There are plenty of psychopaths in every country,  usually taught to suppress their instincts.  Given a plausible cause to  justify killing, these people join  paramilitaries and begin killing innocents from the other tribe
Alongside this, we will see the  further rise of right-wing political parties 

I can't see an end point:

 In Northern Ireland,  you had 10% support for the paramilitaries,  and I think that  diminished  and was overwhelmed  by the revulsion of the larger  group of  less aggressive people in each tribe, when enough people felt that too much innocent blood had been spilled. These murders were political, not religious, although the tribes were defined by religion.

With Daesh, the murders are  religiously  motivated, they also have 10%+ support, and we've seen how the killers can subjugate  nice normal muslims in Iraq and Syria.  When would  enough  infidel blood be spilled to make Daesh supporters  change their minds? The Catholics  spent hundreds of years  in holy wars.
I can't visualise a peace process once the  reprisal attacks start.  Look at  the break up of Yugoslavia

Sambostar

Given the massive changes most germans have seen within 10 years, which make the changes here pale into insignificance, with whole towns now completely islamified by conservative islam, having been tolerant traditional towns previously, i feel sorry for the german people. Anyone has a right to believe what they wish but when you don't assimilate to some degree it becomes an invasion. These people are not the moderate british muslims I knew of old.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

I don't know where to begin. There are quite a few attacks IS claimed responsibility for which turned out to be loners - were they influenced by IS - possibly - were they controlled by them? No. The fact 'Daesh only claim attacks for which they are responsible' is bollocks as they don't have a coherent terrorist network. There are fragmented groups and loners who decide to act - they are not part of some big terrorist organisation under Daesh control. 

They don't need to be. That's part of their strategy as you should well know - it makes them hard to fight. They can essentially raise recruits remotely to act autonomously, either as small groups or individuals.

Fretwired said:

Every time Daesh is mentioned is gives them oxygen - it encourages other idiots to do stupid things in the name of religion. The organisation is on it's knees and is virtually broke. People need to stop promoting their propaganda. The German security services and CIA have said there is currently no evidence to support their claims so why claim they were responsible when there's no evidence?

Being aware of who you're fighting and how they inspire their followers does not "give them oxygen".

There are dozens of groups of which IS is one. IS isn't even a cohesive organisation - many of the attacks aren't even inspired by IS - the tactic of driving cars or trucks goes back to al-Qaida which is still active and prefers it to using guns or explosives which security forces can intercept. Pop over to any of the radical Muslim sites and you'll find people urging action. This is not all IS - sure they post videos, they have a magazine that urges action but this is more complex. IS didn't claim responsibility for the Berlin attack until police said they had a Pakistani migrant in custody. They claimed responsibility for the stabbings in Minnesota which the CIA rubbished - there was no evidence of contact with the culprit. 

We see IS as the major enemy but Yemen is a major source of radicalisation - many in Yeman are radical Salafists who are nothing to do with IS. Islam is at war with itself - Sunniy/Sufi versus Wahabi/Salafi, and Shia - there are also major powers - Iran vs Saudi Arabia a well known exporter of terror. All we see is IS as they are a visible enemy which can be bombed from the air in Syria and Iraq. Razak Ali Artan attacked people in the US and IS claimed responsibility - the CIA found no evidence and in interviewing him he claimed he was appalled by how the west was treating Muslims in Syria so decided to act.

You are right when you say IS chucks out out information and tries to urge people to action and sometimes this may be the case, but splashing a headline 'IS claims responsibility .." and peddling the internet myth that IS only claim responsibility for its own attacks without hard evidence just gives them a propaganda victory. I'm sure IS don't know half the people who have undertaken attacks.