Berlin lorry attack

Flanging_Fred

German authorities are now searching for a terrorist from Tataouine.

Flanging_Fred

Too soon?

Fretwired

Flanging_Fred said:

German authorities are now searching for a terrorist from Tataouine.

Yep .. a Tunisian who was denied asylum but allowed to stay and was known to the police. If this turns out to be an IS attack (as is looking likely) the far right in Germany will generate a shit storm which could have major repercussions. Sad times ..

quarky

It is a terrible situation. My wife has a friend who lives in the Berlin suburbs and apparently heard some muslims celebrating the deaths and letting off fireworks. I take that with a massive pinch of salt, but there are clearly problems in our European societies. And it isn't a muslim thing in essence, it is about differences seeming bigger than they really are. It has been discussed before, but I think multiculturalism has to shoulder a huge part of the blame here. When someone born in Germany (or the UK for that matter) can identify more with someone from Syria, it isn't a healthy situation.

We should all feel part of our own local (national) community. That is missing in so much of Europe these days, and that doesn't do anything to stop this kind of crap from happening. In fact, it drives wedges deeper. But that kind of talk would get any politician labelled as a racist and a fascist these days.

mixolyd

quarky said:

It is a terrible situation. My wife has a friend who lives in the Berlin suburbs and apparently heard some muslims celebrating the deaths and letting off fireworks. I take that with a massive pinch of salt, but there are clearly problems in our European societies. And it isn't a muslim thing in essence, it is about differences seeming bigger than they really are. It has been discussed before, but I think multiculturalism has to shoulder a huge part of the blame here. When someone born in Germany (or the UK for that matter) can identify more with someone from Syria, it isn't a healthy situation.

We should all feel part of our own local (national) community. That is missing in so much of Europe these days, and that doesn't do anything to stop this kind of crap from happening. In fact, it drives wedges deeper. But that kind of talk would get any politician labelled as a racist and a fascist these days.

This is very much an Islam thing in that it's a supremacist ideology.  As for being a Muslim thing there's no simple answer for that. It's up to the individual whether they support Sharia, Islamism etc, side with their own over the Kuffar (the majority position), or dare to hold heretical, liberal beliefs either publically or privately, thereby exposing themselves to various dangers.

This has little to do with European culture: once upon a time the Middle East was home to Christianity, Paganism and Judaism.  When Islam came along rattling its saber, the existing populace tried to get along and compromise, not believing that any ideology or religion could be so totally extreme, violent and deceptive as to be plotting the systematic annhilation of their culture, society and history.  This remains the greatest strength of the political thrust of Islam: non-Muslims tend to not believe that it could really be that bad and by the time they do believe, it's too late.

quarky

We have discussed this on the board before though, and it isn't just an islam thing. The guy who drove the truck at Nice was (from memory a smoker and drinker) who hardly ever went to worship. If you listen to what most of these terrorists are talking about, it isn't because allah told them to, it is because of their perception of what is going on in the Middle East, when they see children blown to bits by bombs (European bombs in some cases) and no one seems to care. It is because they feel more of connection to those in the ME who are the same religion, than they do with their countryman. To just say it is an islam thing is to miss the point. Islam plays a big part for these people because it simply fills the vacuum that multiculturalism causes.

Fretwired

quarky said:

We have discussed this on the board before though, and it isn't just an islam thing. The guy who drove the truck at Nice was (from memory a smoker and drinker) who hardly ever went to worship. If you listen to what most of these terrorists are talking about, it isn't because allah told them to, it is because of their perception of what is going on in the Middle East, when they see children blown to bits by bombs (European bombs in some cases) and no one seems to care. It is because they feel more of connection to those in the ME who are the same religion, than they do with their countryman. To just say it is an islam thing is to miss the point. Islam plays a big part for these people because it simply fills the vacuum that multiculturalism causes.

Agree @quarky .. have a wis

Cirrus

@quarky alas I have but one wisdom to give.

mixolyd

quarky said:

We have discussed this on the board before though, and it isn't just an islam thing. The guy who drove the truck at Nice was (from memory a smoker and drinker) who hardly ever went to worship. If you listen to what most of these terrorists are talking about, it isn't because allah told them to, it is because of their perception of what is going on in the Middle East, when they see children blown to bits by bombs (European bombs in some cases) and no one seems to care. It is because they feel more of connection to those in the ME who are the same religion, than they do with their countryman. To just say it is an islam thing is to miss the point. Islam plays a big part for these people because it simply fills the vacuum that multiculturalism causes.

This is part of the beauty of Islam as an ideological engine of violence: because the Quran and the Hadith state clearly that the most virtuous activity possible is to sacrifice your life in violence against the Kuffar and that this will outweigh any virtuous or non-virtuous activity in your life, this kind of act is especially attractive to those whose action up to the moment have been less than pious.

Violence is explicitly a shortcut to virtue in Islam: if you actually understood the teachings you would know this.  Muslims often fail to get this also: the majority of Muslims have never read the Quran and simply believe what they are told at their mosque, so to them it seems like these terrorists are somehow misinterpreting or perverting Islam.  

It it also makes tactical sense to usefully sacrifice the lives of those who are not contributing to the group as others have done: there's a lot of logic to Muhammad's instructions.

The whole narrative of bombs in the Middle East/Western colonialism is one that the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist groups like Hizb al Tahrir have spent many millions of dollars fostering over the last few decades, more recently joined with by the "useful idiots" of the Chomskian left and liberal media (see Maajid Nawaaz' autobiographical account "Radical: My Journey Out of Islamist Extremism" for an insider view on this).  

The number of Muslims killed by western activity in the ME is dwarfed by those killed by their fellow Muslims, let alone those who are beaten, raped, imprisoned or otherwise persecuted.  

We've already seen in the last few years what happens when the West tries to be less involved in the Middle East (they get carnage, we get immigrants and terror: thanks Obama, Russia and China look to move in)  and even if we did somehow do that without bringing about more mega-scale disaster, the Muslim Brotherhood would just change the narrative and continue poisoning Muslim minds in order to continue attacking the secular world.

So yes: it's an Islam thing.

Fretwired

This is not looking good for the German police or security services. The guy they were looking for was implicated in another plot but the police lost him and gave up - they didn't bother trying to find him. Looks like this time he's succeeded.

quarky

mixolyd said:

This is part of the beauty of Islam as an ideological engine of violence: because the Quran and the Hadith state clearly that the most virtuous activity possible is to sacrifice your life in violence against the Kuffar and that this will outweigh any virtuous or non-virtuous activity in your life, this kind of act is especially attractive to those whose action up to the moment have been less than pious.
......
So yes: it's an Islam thing.

Yep, and with all respect, we have discussed this too. There are plenty of horrible texts in the bible too, but again, if you look at what these terrorists tend to say, they are not doing it for their religion (although that has a role), they are doing it because of how those they connect with are being treated in their eyes. Yes, Islam is a common element, but that is because it is an important fact of life for these people. They feel alienated, isolated, and abused in the environments they live in.

It is a problem that if prevalent in the muslim community without a doubt, but that doesn't make it a problem with islam. And to be clear, I think all religion is garbage. Alienating, and isolating these people further isn't a solution though, the solution is integration, and (in the UK), making people feel British, and part of society regardless of things as pathetic as skin colour and religion, not trying to demonise a people because of the religion they follow (as garbage as it might be). Once people are integrated into the western world, I have little doubt that there need for sky-pixies will decrease, as it has done for other religions.

quarky

Cirrus said:

@quarky alas I have but one wisdom to give.

Just take it back from the other post!

martinw

quarky said:

....the solution is integration...

True. Tell them that.

ToneControl

quarky said:

mixolyd said:

This is part of the beauty of Islam as an ideological engine of violence: because the Quran and the Hadith state clearly that the most virtuous activity possible is to sacrifice your life in violence against the Kuffar and that this will outweigh any virtuous or non-virtuous activity in your life, this kind of act is especially attractive to those whose action up to the moment have been less than pious.
......
So yes: it's an Islam thing.

Yep, and with all respect, we have discussed this too. There are plenty of horrible texts in the bible too, but again, if you look at what these terrorists tend to say, they are not doing it for their religion (although that has a role), they are doing it because of how those they connect with are being treated in their eyes. Yes, Islam is a common element, but that is because it is an important fact of life for these people. They feel alienated, isolated, and abused in the environments they live in.

It is a problem that if prevalent in the muslim community without a doubt, but that doesn't make it a problem with islam. And to be clear, I think all religion is garbage. Alienating, and isolating these people further isn't a solution though, the solution is integration, and (in the UK), making people feel British, and part of society regardless of things as pathetic as skin colour and religion, not trying to demonise a people because of the religion they follow (as garbage as it might be). Once people are integrated into the western world, I have little doubt that there need for sky-pixies will decrease, as it has done for other religions.

You say the terrorism done by muslims is nothing to do with Islam.
Why the preoccupation with  suicide bombing then?
Or using yourself as a weapon,  willing martyrdom

Did the UK citizens who travelled  to Syria and Iraq to join Daesh have just a generic problem fitting in within the UK?
Nothing to do with religion? 

Give me some examples  on the success rates for integration  amongst various religions
Quite low for some.  How long do the tribes remain separate? Not long unless religion offers a barrier
There are many places round the world where minimal levels of integration has persisted for  centuries
Typically, fundamentalism religions are the cause

Anyway,  we will see  civil war at this rate.  PC stuff about helping integration  is  too late to fix this (and only considering immigrant communities as passive victims of failed integration is both insulting and  unrealistic)

quarky

ToneControl said:

You say the terrorism done by muslims is nothing to do with Islam.
Why the preoccupation with  suicide bombing then?
Or using yourself as a weapon,  willing martyrdom

Did the UK citizens who travelled  to Syria and Iraq to join Daesh have just a generic problem fitting in within the UK?
Nothing to do with religion? 

Give me some examples  on the success rates for integration  amongst various religions
Quite low for some.  How long do the tribes remain separate? Not long unless religion offers a barrier
There are many places round the world where minimal levels of integration has persisted for  centuries
Typically, fundamentalism religions are the cause

Anyway,  we will see  civil war at this rate.  PC stuff about helping integration  is  too late to fix this (and only considering immigrant communities as passive victims of failed integration is both insulting and  unrealistic)

Back up the assumption train. I didn't say it was nothing to do with Islam, I said "Yes, Islam is a common element, but that is because it is an important fact of life for these people. They feel alienated, isolated, and abused in the environments they live in."

Suicide bombers were around long before 9/11, and there are suicide bombers who are not islamic. In fact plenty of non-muslims have over the years been willing to give up their life for what they believe in, it really isn't a new thing. And I also said "It is a problem that if prevalent in the muslim community without a doubt". Yes a lot of these people happen to be muslims but that is because for decades they have been made to feel more commonality with fellow-muslims in those religion which are getting bombed to crap, rather than with their workers, colleagues, and fellow countrymen. So yes, I bet those a lot of those that do go for fight with ISIS don't feel a connection with their country, with the culture that they find themselves in.

Christians integrate better in western society than muslims. Is that want to want to heat? There it is, but it doesn't prove anything, we all know that is the problem, but the solution isn't to alienate them more. That make no sense at all. The solution is help these people integrate more. And yep, I agree there are barriers. There are barriers that these communities themselves put in place, but even more stupid are the reasons we give not to integrate. We translate everything to a dozen languages (and not all European ones!), we practically encourage people to keep their own beliefs, languages, and cultures while living here, and we are too quick to play the racist card or the nationalist card. We need to sort that shit out before we can tackle fundamentalism. Because if someone doesn't feel a part of the wider British community, what incentive is there for them to give up their fundamentalist community? Sod all.

And it isn't about seeing people as passive victims, it is the opposite. It is recognising that *that* is where a lot of the problems at, but to tackle that, we need to provide something that fills the void that people have. The children of fundamentalists should feel British, and it is when they don't, they follow in the footsteps of the previous generation, but get even more disenfranchised because they don't even have the hope that a lot of the previous generation had.

Or we could just point the finger at these already isolated and alienated communities while bombing the fuck of their relatives in the Middle East because that just works so well!

Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread about Berlin any more than I already have!

Emp_Fab

My work colleague started spouting the same kind of retarded lynch-mob bollocks that strangefan posted, this morning.  It was so funny to watch his attitude change when I told him they had the wrong bloke.  His first reaction was that they'd really got the right bloke but it must have been some legal loophole that caused them to let him go (so desperate was he for someone - anyone - to be punished), then he realised how stupid he was sounding and switched to a tack of "well, he must have been up to something or they wouldn't have arrested him" in a desperate attempt to retain any kind of face.

The bigger problem here is not that some murderous lunatic drove a truck into innocent people but that people with knee-jerk simplistic minds like my colleague and strangefan are so numerous and are able to vote.  I'm not suggesting removing the right to vote from anyone (as tempting as that would be) but the low-brow media that pumps sensationalist, reactionary shit into the minds of people without the capacity for rational, independent thought ought to be held to account.  If it wasn't for the rabid frothing of the likes of the Daily Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, The Express, Fox News, Sky News etc etc continually brainwashing the intellectually less blessed, then maybe we might be able to start making some progress.

I've always said that Hitler had the right idea, just the wrong demographic.    

mixolyd

To anyone who knows the Quran and Hadith to any extent, a comparison to the Christian Bible is absurd.

The violence in the Bible is local and temporal.   The exhorations to violence in the Quran are universal and eternal.

No-one gives a monkeys about the Canaanites anymore, but the demands to conquer and subjugate the Kuffar, the Christians and Jews who are "lower than pigs" - these demands will echo in the Friday prayers in mosques all over the world this week.  Yes, in the shadow of trucks mowing down Christmas shoppers Muslims will follow their Imam in praying for Victory over the Kuffar.  In Egypt and Turkey Churches will burn, regardless of what is happening elsewhere, because this is what Islam does - this is how Muhammad designed it.

The Quran is primarily a political text, not a religious one.  The trappings of religious Islam were mostly added later, after the death of Muhammad, and as such have very little sway over the direction of events until some form of modernisation somehow happens.  Ask any good Muslim and they'll tell you - Islam isn't a religion - it's much more than that.

Sambostar

Lambish wankers. Though èasily done diddly do.

Placidcasual79

ICBM said:

Placidcasual79 said:

Terrible news. So shocking. To think innocent people out doing Christmas shopping and not coming home...... so sad. These tragedies are becoming so common. Its important not to become complacent or desensitised.  

But equally it's important not to let them change our way of life. That's what they want.

While it's tragic for the victims and their families and friends, it's also important to remember how *few* - not how many - people have ever been killed by terrorism, and be prepared to not be afraid to go out to public places, while remaining alert. It's a difficult balance, but I think we largely get it right.

@ICBM and @cabbagecat ; - agreed100%, it is important not to change our way of life and to keep perspective. I just feel dismayed at the extent of human suffering sometimes - apologies if I slipped into negativity a bit there.

In the current climate its important to protect our personal freedoms and not to allow the powers that be to utilise the actions of the few to encroach on our private spaces and basic rights.  

Stevepage

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38415287

The fingerprints of the dead man match those of the Tunisian main suspect in the Berlin bombing, reports in the Italian media say. - copy and pasted

That's funny, looked like an enormous truck to me