The Stratocaster and Telecaster

usedtobe

Has nobody mentioned the ridiculous volume knob placement, yet?

richardhomer

usedtobe said:

Has nobody mentioned the perfect volume knob placement, yet?

FTFY

ICBM

One of the good things about the Strat is that it has two tone controls, so you can remove one of them and put the volume control there instead.

Lebarque

The volume control placement on a strat is perfect to me. It's just the right place to wrap your little finger around it to tweak.

Voxman

Voxman said:

guitars4you said:

Hey remember that Leo could not play guitar

Yup, he was a drummer - ridiculous isn't it!

He played the saxamophone!


Ah, OK - I think I was getting confused with Jim Marshall then! 

Voxman

I watched the video which said that Leo Fender sold to CBS in 1965 because his wife died.  Now, I know Wikipedia isn't always 100%, but that says his wife Esther died from cancer in 1979 and that he sold to CBS because he'd been suffering from a streptococcal sinus infection.

I haven't looked further, but that's a heck of a difference - anyone able to verify one or other?

richardhomer

Voxman said:

I watched the video which said that Leo Fender sold to CBS in 1965 because his wife died.  Now, I know Wikipedia isn't always 100%, but that says his wife Esther died from cancer in 1979 and that he sold to CBS because he'd been suffering from a streptococcal sinus infection.

I haven't looked further, but that's a heck of a difference - anyone able to verify one or other?

My understanding was he sold the company due to ill-health - though he stayed on as a consultant and developed things like the Microtilt for Fender, before going on to set up Music Man after severing ties with CBS once his contract can to an end.

Evilmags

I´ve got one of each, and both are really good guitars. But I still prefer the Jaden for Fusion, Metal, Funk and really loud playing. Fender have long since made guitars available with the things I don´t like about their vintage guitars (Skinny frets, very curved necks) which is why I now own two. But like any company they have made some real crap over the years as well, and some of the strats and teles I´ve played over the years have been fairly awful. (Honestly, in 1989 I remember the first strat I played that made me go "that´s not bad". It was a Tokai.)

As a company they are certainly better at building guitars than Gibson currently is and despite the fact that a custom shop Tele or Strat is clearly less in materials and labour than a a historic reissue Lester, 9/10 times they will actually do what they say on the tin. It may well be harder to get that sort of consistency with traditional designs but at the prices charged it is kind of expected.

Strats and Teles can´t really venture into 335 land and come out that well either. What they are is just good tools to get certain jobs done. You see them a lot more nowadays because lower stage volume and better lighting/wireing in venues doesn´t require and EMG loaded guitar and ear plugs. But if you like gain, humbuckers are still better.     

Voxman

rsvmark said:

While I wouldn't disagree with the strat love in, I would suggest there are a small number of design flaws thusly:

original 3 way selector which evolved into the 5 way
Single coil pick ups prone to noise in certain conditions
Neck pocket creates a heel which hinders upper access 
Screw mounting of tremolo assembly to body (makes setting up harder but conversely contributes to that stratiness sound)

I wouldn't compare it to the mona Lisa but I would compare it to the original mini designed by Sir Alec Issigonis. Both are now icons and owe a lot of their original aesthetic to components designed for manufacturing techniques and proces. Both are also very functional, but I am going to resist the modernist (Le Courbousier derived) form follows function argument. The headstock design, rounded curves on the body and upper horn imho move the design way beyond modernism.

A lot of good points there, but perhaps worth taking into account the following:  

Single coil pick ups prone to noise in certain conditions:  
When the Strat was designed in 1954, players were still playing clean and plugged straight into an amp.  So to be fair to Leo the 60 cycle hum issue only became more prominent much later on when players started cranking amps for distortion, using external distortions eg fuzz boxes, and playing in venues where there was strip lighting.  Leo & his team designed the Strat to meet the needs of the day and couldn't reasonably have foreseen how music and playing styles would change so dramatically.

Original 3 way selector which evolved into the 5 way: 
The 5-way selector was borne by serendipity in that the 'in-between' sounds now referred to as positions 2 & 4 were never intended by design but found entirely accidentally by players and were due to the unique switch & wiring chosen by Leo - in other words his switch/wiring design had unintended 'future proofing' and was ahead of its time!  

Neck pocket creates a heel which hinders upper access: 
With regards to upper body access, players of the day mostly didn't really tend to use the whole neck - Buddy Holly strumming open chords and arpegios using open chords by Ritchie Valence are prime examples as to how many guitarists played originally.  String gauges tended to be much thicker than is typically used today, which limited lead guitar techniques as we know them today.  Only as music changed, encouraged by the flexibilities and tones of the Strat, and the advent of distortion & feedback, did more guitarists begin to venture higher up the neck.   

Screw mounting of tremolo assembly to body (makes setting up harder but conversely contributes to that stratiness sound):
Although setting up is more fiddly by today's standards, in its day the Strat trem was a superb design and, properly set-up, stayed in tune remarkably well. A prime example is Hank Marvin. 

I'd add a further 'flaw' to the list, relating to the original fixed pole pick-ups, and that's the 'double-toning' you can get with old Strats in particular. This is only really noticeable with distortion on the 'bass' strings as you play up the neck, but again using the Strat with distortion and playing higher up the neck didn't come til much later.  

I think the point here, and which I'm sure is not in dispute by anyone, is that the underlying Strat design was so brilliant, aside from a few modern tweaks, some 63 years later on for all intents & purposes the Strat remains virtually unchanged.  Of course the same can be said of the Telecaster - but in terms of sheer world-wide sales, popularity and iconic status, nothing comes remotely close to the Stratocaster and its near-perfect design.    

Voxman

usedtobe said:

Has nobody mentioned the ridiculous volume knob placement, yet?

Actually, it was brilliantly positioned for 'violining' in that you could hook your little finger round it - a technique I used to adopt when I got my first Strat and pre-volume pedal days.  But if you're concerned that the volume control can be moved too easily unintentionally, there's a very simple fix.  

If you're a Strat player and haven't yet seen this vid, it's well worth watching:  

HAL9000

Voxman said:

Original 3 way selector which evolved into the 5 way: 
The 5-way selector was borne by serendipity in that the 'in-between' sounds now referred to as positions 2 & 4 were never intended by design but found entirely accidentally by players and were due to the unique switch & wiring chosen by Leo - in other words his switch/wiring design had unintended 'future proofing' and was ahead of its time! 

At least the original 3 way made it tricky to get those hateful inbetween sounds. Leo actually got it right first time.

HAL9000

Another thing that has evolved over time is the fretboard radius. Originally 7.25", then 9.5". The new Elite series instruments have compound radius boards with the dusty end being pretty flat at 14". Again to work better with modern playing styles.

Gassage

Voxman said:

rsvmark said:

While I wouldn't disagree with the strat love in, I would suggest there are a small number of design flaws thusly:

original 3 way selector which evolved into the 5 way
Single coil pick ups prone to noise in certain conditions
Neck pocket creates a heel which hinders upper access 
Screw mounting of tremolo assembly to body (makes setting up harder but conversely contributes to that stratiness sound)

I wouldn't compare it to the mona Lisa but I would compare it to the original mini designed by Sir Alec Issigonis. Both are now icons and owe a lot of their original aesthetic to components designed for manufacturing techniques and proces. Both are also very functional, but I am going to resist the modernist (Le Courbousier derived) form follows function argument. The headstock design, rounded curves on the body and upper horn imho move the design way beyond modernism.

A lot of good points there, but perhaps worth taking into account the following:  

Single coil pick ups prone to noise in certain conditions:  
When the Strat was designed in 1954, players were still playing clean and plugged straight into an amp.  So to be fair to Leo the 60 cycle hum issue only became more prominent much later on when players started cranking amps for distortion, using external distortions eg fuzz boxes, and playing in venues where there was strip lighting.  Leo & his team designed the Strat to meet the needs of the day and couldn't reasonably have foreseen how music and playing styles would change so dramatically.

Original 3 way selector which evolved into the 5 way: 
The 5-way selector was borne by serendipity in that the 'in-between' sounds now referred to as positions 2 & 4 were never intended by design but found entirely accidentally by players and were due to the unique switch & wiring chosen by Leo - in other words his switch/wiring design had unintended 'future proofing' and was ahead of its time!  

Neck pocket creates a heel which hinders upper access: 
With regards to upper body access, players of the day mostly didn't really tend to use the whole neck - Buddy Holly strumming open chords and arpegios using open chords by Ritchie Valence are prime examples as to how many guitarists played originally.  String gauges tended to be much thicker than is typically used today, which limited lead guitar techniques as we know them today.  Only as music changed, encouraged by the flexibilities and tones of the Strat, and the advent of distortion & feedback, did more guitarists begin to venture higher up the neck.   

Screw mounting of tremolo assembly to body (makes setting up harder but conversely contributes to that stratiness sound):
Although setting up is more fiddly by today's standards, in its day the Strat trem was a superb design and, properly set-up, stayed in tune remarkably well. A prime example is Hank Marvin. 

I'd add a further 'flaw' to the list, relating to the original fixed pole pick-ups, and that's the 'double-toning' you can get with old Strats in particular. This is only really noticeable with distortion on the 'bass' strings as you play up the neck, but again using the Strat with distortion and playing higher up the neck didn't come til much later.  

I think the point here, and which I'm sure is not in dispute by anyone, is that the underlying Strat design was so brilliant, aside from a few modern tweaks, some 63 years later on for all intents & purposes the Strat remains virtually unchanged.  Of course the same can be said of the Telecaster - but in terms of sheer world-wide sales, popularity and iconic status, nothing comes remotely close to the Stratocaster and its near-perfect design.    

All fair points but it's rather like saying that the Mona LIsa's chin is a little too pointed.

Don't forget, he had no references really. This was green field to a large extent.

usedtobe

Voxman said:

usedtobe said:

Has nobody mentioned the ridiculous volume knob placement, yet?

Actually, it was brilliantly positioned for 'violining' in that you could hook your little finger round it - a technique I used to adopt when I got my first Strat and pre-volume pedal days.  But if you're concerned that the volume control can be moved too easily unintentionally, there's a very simple fix.  

If you're a Strat player and haven't yet seen this vid, it's well worth watching:  

Yeah, but speaking as someone who doesn't do violining, it's just in the bloody way!

Gassage

usedtobe said:

Voxman said:

usedtobe said:

Has nobody mentioned the ridiculous volume knob placement, yet?

Actually, it was brilliantly positioned for 'violining' in that you could hook your little finger round it - a technique I used to adopt when I got my first Strat and pre-volume pedal days.  But if you're concerned that the volume control can be moved too easily unintentionally, there's a very simple fix.  

If you're a Strat player and haven't yet seen this vid, it's well worth watching:  

Yeah, but speaking as someone who doesn't do violining, it's just in the bloody way!

Buy a vol pedal!

ICBM

Noise was a problem even in the 1950s. Although Fender continued to use single coils, Leo never designed a guitar after the Strat that did not have hum cancellation, either with two RWRP pickups - Jazzmaster, Jaguar, Jazz Bass etc - or with split coils - Precision Bass, Mustang Bass, Electric XII etc - apart from the cheap Musicmaster and Bronco, and all the models after the Strat were also shielded. (The Bronco and XII were after Leo had left, but he was still a design consultant.)

Why the Strat and Tele were never fitted with proper shielding, I don't know. The Tele isn't too bad with all its metal parts, but even with the 60s-style pickguard underlayer the Strat is very poorly shielded.

Gassage

ICBM said:

Noise was a problem even in the 1950s. Although Fender continued to use single coils, Leo never designed a guitar after the Strat that did not have hum cancellation, either with two RWRP pickups - Jazzmaster, Jaguar, Jazz Bass etc - or with split coils - Precision Bass, Mustang Bass, Electric XII etc - apart from the cheap Musicmaster and Bronco, and all the models after the Strat were also shielded. (The Bronco and XII were after Leo had left, but he was still a design consultant.)

Why the Strat and Tele were never fitted with proper shielding, I don't know. The Tele isn't too bad with all its metal parts, but even with the 60s-style pickguard underlayer the Strat is very poorly shielded.

In fairness, back then a lighting rig was a candle and a tablelamp!

ICBM

Yes, but there were a lot of motor-driven gadgets and neon lighting in venues which were not noise-suppressed compared to modern ones, so actually the noise environment might have been worse than today. Add the complete lack of earthing in the US and it was a real problem - it was one of the major complaints about the Jazzmaster, which has very noisy pickups if you're not using the middle position.

Octafish

ICBM said:

Noise was a problem even in the 1950s. Although Fender continued to use single coils, Leo never designed a guitar after the Strat that did not have hum cancellation, either with two RWRP pickups - Jazzmaster, Jaguar, Jazz Bass etc - or with split coils - Precision Bass, Mustang Bass, Electric XII etc - apart from the cheap Musicmaster and Bronco, and all the models after the Strat were also shielded. (The Bronco and XII were after Leo had left, but he was still a design consultant.)

Didn't Leo stick with single coils, despite the drawbacks, because he wanted their bright, cutting sound for country music players. I seem to remember reading there was also legal issues with him using a PAF style humbuckers?

Gassage

Octafish said:

ICBM said:

Noise was a problem even in the 1950s. Although Fender continued to use single coils, Leo never designed a guitar after the Strat that did not have hum cancellation, either with two RWRP pickups - Jazzmaster, Jaguar, Jazz Bass etc - or with split coils - Precision Bass, Mustang Bass, Electric XII etc - apart from the cheap Musicmaster and Bronco, and all the models after the Strat were also shielded. (The Bronco and XII were after Leo had left, but he was still a design consultant.)

Didn't Leo stick with single coils, despite the drawbacks, because he wanted their bright, cutting sound for country music players. I seem to remember reading there was also legal issues with him using a PAF style humbuckers?

Not sure re above, but I am aware that Fender employed Seth Lover to design the Wide Ranger for them specifically for a HB with a brighter sound in 1972.