Line mixers.... Whats that all about?

Aidanspaghetti

Hi all,
just wondering what their function is?
In a w/d/w set up is it literally to split the wet/dry balance? 
If so, is there an industry standard or a magic chepo version that works?
Thanks in advance!

Gassage

Basically it means taking the "dry" signal - after going through the comps, overdrives, distortions, EQs, modulations - and splitting that signal in two before the delays. One dry line goes into the delays and the other, running parallel to it, bypasses them. The signal coming out of the delays is just the "wet" echo repeats, none of the dry. Both the wet signal dry parallel signal meet again at a mixer where they are blended together before going to the amplifiers, or in some cases, before going into more modulations, then then into the amps.
Most of us who have done this used a simple setup like this, with the delay running through a looper pedal, like a Boss LS-2, Xotic blender, or similar. The volume pedal can be in that loop or before it. There were a few volume pedals with the loop built in too.


There are a couple of threads here about setting up a parallel delay loop. I did one listing the different delays that have the dry defeat function and listing different types of parallel loopers.

jonnygreentrees

Gassage said:

Basically it means taking the "dry" signal - after going through the comps, overdrives, distortions, EQs, modulations - and splitting that signal in two before the delays. One dry line goes into the delays and the other, running parallel to it, bypasses them. The signal coming out of the delays is just the "wet" echo repeats, none of the dry. Both the wet signal dry parallel signal meet again at a mixer where they are blended together before going to the amplifiers, or in some cases, before going into more modulations, then then into the amps.
Most of us who have done this used a simple setup like this, with the delay running through a looper pedal, like a Boss LS-2, Xotic blender, or similar. The volume pedal can be in that loop or before it. There were a few volume pedals with the loop built in too.


There are a couple of threads here about setting up a parallel delay loop. I did one listing the different delays that have the dry defeat function and listing different types of parallel loopers.

Out of interest how does this differ from simply using the mix knob of a delay?

Gassage

jonnygreentrees said:

Out of interest how does this differ from simply using the mix knob of a delay?

Depends which delay.

Some are internally parallel mixed, TES, Chrono, 2290, Providence 80's delay are all par mixed.

But, to make this work you need a pedal with dry kill: here's a list of those that do 100% wet and dry kill.

Delay's that do 100% true wet signal only:
Boss DD-2 (with dummy plug)
Boss DD-3
TC Electronics Nova Delay
Boss DD20 giga Delay
MXR Delay system II
TC D-two
Line 6 Echo Park
Line 6 DL4
Empress Super Delay
Diamond Memory Lane
Eventide Timefactor
Yamaha UD stomp
Skreddy Echo
TC 2290
Skrydstrup DDL Custom Delay
Providence Delay 80 (with dummy plug)
EHX Deluxe Memory Man
Ibanez DE7
TC Nova Repeater
Providence Chrono Delay
Roland RE555

jonnygreentrees

Gassage said:

jonnygreentrees said:

Out of interest how does this differ from simply using the mix knob of a delay?

Depends which delay.

Some are internally parallel mixed, TES, Chrono, 2290, Providence 80's delay are all par mixed.

But, to make this work you need a pedal with dry kill: here's a list of those that do 100% wet and dry kill.

Delay's that do 100% true wet signal only:
Boss DD-2 (with dummy plug)
Boss DD-3
TC Electronics Nova Delay
Boss DD20 giga Delay
MXR Delay system II
TC D-two
Line 6 Echo Park
Line 6 DL4
Empress Super Delay
Diamond Memory Lane
Eventide Timefactor
Yamaha UD stomp
Skreddy Echo
TC 2290
Skrydstrup DDL Custom Delay
Providence Delay 80 (with dummy plug)
EHX Deluxe Memory Man
Ibanez DE7
TC Nova Repeater
Providence Chrono Delay
Roland RE555

sorry I'm still confused, what difference does having the delay mixed in parallel in the pedal make?

Gassage

OK, what you are doing is twofold.

1. Because you're only getting the delay signal back you keep the core note untouched and free of clutter and ghost notes.
2. You are removing your core tone going through ADDA's- only the trails are doing that now.
3. You can now do stuff like sending different delays (without the core or with the core note) to different amps or record your delay on separate channels in the studio etc.

jonnygreentrees

Gassage said:

OK, what you are doing is twofold.

1. Because you're only getting the delay signal back you keep the core note untouched and free of clutter and ghost notes.
2. You are removing your core tone going through ADDA's- only the trails are doing that now.
3. You can now do stuff like sending different delays (without the core or with the core note) to different amps or record your delay on separate channels in the studio etc.

OK I get you now, although unless you are using two delays and don't want the second delay delaying the first delay I can't see much benefit if you are using a decent delay pedal which doesn't digitise the dry signal and a mono setup? 

Aidanspaghetti

Ah cool, Thanks Gassage and happy belated btw
So the Timeline doesnt do Killdry? Thought that would do it for sure.... 

Gassage

Aidanspaghetti said:

Ah cool, Thanks Gassage and happy belated btw
So the Timeline doesnt do Killdry? Thought that would do it for sure.... 

Not sure. Probably does, yes.

@jonnygreentrees

Not quoting for space reasons-

It sounds daft but it just seems to make the delays sound huge; it also means you can dial more in without losing clarity. Gilmour, Johnson, Bonamassa swear by par mixing.

jonnygreentrees

Gassage said:

Aidanspaghetti said:

Ah cool, Thanks Gassage and happy belated btw
So the Timeline doesnt do Killdry? Thought that would do it for sure.... 

Not sure. Probably does, yes.

@jonnygreentrees

Not quoting for space reasons-

It sounds daft but it just seems to make the delays sound huge; it also means you can dial more in without losing clarity. Gilmour, Johnson, Bonamassa swear by par mixing.

Fair enough!

Gassage

Re par mixing boxes:

Hermida
Suhr
RJM
Lehle Par M and L (the best one IMO)
Gigrig Wetbox
Badger Schism
Wounded Paw Blenders (4 models)

ThePrettyDamned

I think most boss delays are internally parallel mixed, with the dry signal never going through ad/da. Obviously in a studio or "big rig" environment it leaves you with less options than manually splitting the signal and routing it where you want yourself but it means your core tone isn't changed. 

Jonathanthomas83

It sounds great when done properly. Like Gassage said, can sound huge. 

Aidanspaghetti

Hmmm! Ive just bought a Friedman smallbox and I have a Timeline/dd3 and a Dl8 plus a power station.
Guess I could pick up 2 Harley benton 1x12 v 30 cabs, run them through the PS...
Which mixer would you guys reccomend? BUdget in or around 150-200? (No idea how much these things cost)

Jonathanthomas83

EDIT: Delete me.

ecc83

Gahggghh! WHO drew that flow diagram?? It is ALWAYS the convention that signals move from LEFT to Right in a schematic or block diagram!

Dave.

4114Effects

ecc83 said:

Gahggghh! WHO drew that flow diagram?? It is ALWAYS the convention that signals move from LEFT to Right in a schematic or block diagram!

Dave.

Except on a pedal board, where the diagram shown matches the typical flow of signal on a physical setup. Makes it easier to understand for your average Joe who's setting up their board with parallel mixing.

It's well designed for the target audience, I don't think it was really aimed at satisfying angry engineers with pedantic tendencies ;-) 

clarkefan

Fantastic stuff @Gassage!  Thank you!

Another big user of the sound is Steve Lukather, he does some sort of interactive timing thing with two DL8s (modified for kill dry) and an RJM mixer.

Jonathanthomas83

Just adding a few to the 100% wet (has kill dry) delay list:

Free the Tone Flight Time
Source Audio Nemesis
Strymon DIG
Strymon Timeline

paganskins

.

Aidanspaghetti

Thanks for all the info guys, Ive been wondering, would the PS do as a power amp or would It be better to get a dedicated "Stereo" amp? How would the Loop on the PS figure on the PS for a wdw?