Great Political Leaders

Cirrus

bingefeller said:

Does anyone else think Saddam Hussein was a good leader?  He was brutal, but he needed to be brutal to keep control of his people.  Look at what has happened after his death, the middle east is a complete mess. 

A good leader? No.

A strong leader, maybe.

I think the only reason a brutal leader needs to be brutal is that their brutality would be grounds for the populace to topple them from power if they ever let up with their brutality - I mean, the brutality is only there to keep these people in power, not as some "necessary evil" that the population needs.

Came across this video the other day, seems relevant here;

vale

Motorhate said:

Aneurin Bevan - the only politician who’s convinced me that there was once a  politician that actually cared about the working class in this country after the war. The opposition he got to forming the Welfare State and his steadfast determination to ride roughshod over them and introduce something that I think this country can be truly proud of.

one of my favourite ever britains (a hero) & by far my favourite british leader.

people who remember thatcher as 'great' usually turn out to be those who got a state-funded doggy treat from her (at great long-term public expense) in the form of a cheap council house (vote-for-us) bribe, get-rich-quick shares from underpriced floatations of public-owned companies, or other unearned financial benefits from the fake boom she created by deregulating the stock market & fincial services.

public owned council houses, sold off to private owners. a third of which are now private investment schemes (private aka buy-to-let & offshore owned consortiums) draining billions out of the welfare budget, when once that was money coming in to reinvest in public housing.
public owned gas, sold off to private shareholders.
public owned water, sold off to private shareholders.
public owned telecoms, sold off to private shareholders.
& on & on & on.
property everyone owned, which they & their parents & grandparents had invested in through taxes on the public-spirited basis it would remain in public hands for the benefit of everyone for generations to come (the terms on which people like bevin established these things), decanted into private portfolios & offshore consortiums to create short-term bubbles to keep mercenary brits feeling rich & voting for the tories. without them (tories or their followers) ever having to create anything that generated real or sustainable value.

cunt thatcher & her merry band of tory thieves were a disaster for the country. unmitigated.
closely followed by the damage inflicted by blair & new labour, who were basically tories in red ties (post ditching clause4 & embracing free-market fundamentalism). thatcher described tony blair & new labour as her her greatest achievement for that very reason.
the rise of corbyn & allies is supposed to challenging that blairite new labour mentality, but it's still early days & too many vested interests by now (on both sides of the house, business & the media) to allow that to happen without a long & bloody struggle.

as for churchill, he was a feisty orator & neo-imperialist fantasist, much like hitler to be fair.
but as others have already said, what he was about really only served a useful purpose in a wartime context.
peacetime the public promptly dumped him & his stroppy tory meanness in all things civic (he was anti-nhs & anti investment in general education) for attlee, a far more stable & humane socialist character.

marantz1300

Thatcher was a cunt. Some of you are too young to have lived through her reign.

she fucked up so many peoples life's.

"ding dong the witch is dead."

how many politicians have street party's celebrating their death.

randella

vale said:

the rise of corbyn & allies is supposed to challenging that blairite new labour mentality, but it's still early days & too many vested interests by now (on both sides of the house, business & the media) to allow that to happen without a long & bloody struggle.

Give it a rest. The only thing not allowing that to happen is Corbyn. He's about as much use as tits on a fish. He'd lose an election if he was the last man in Britain. 

Ironic that this thread is about great leaders. There's no need for a long and bloody struggle, in fact it's this mentality that's at the root of all the left's problems now if you ask me. Struggle against what? The only way you get elected is through leadership. You inspire your party with your vision. Your gravitas carries your message to the electorate and people vote for you. What the other lot are up to is irrelevant, you have to lead your party to convince people that *your* way is the one. 

Blair knew it, that's why he's the only Labour PM we've had in four decades. We're not allowed to mention his name now though, because he's Hitler and any of the multitude of good things he achieved have to be erased from history never to be learned from because he eats kittens for breakfast and kicks old grannies when no one's looking or whatever it is he does.

Look, I don't like some of what Blair did any more than the next man but he's 100x the leader that soppy old twat Corbyn ever will be.

Until the left has leaders like those of old we're going nowhere. 

Fretwired

marantz1300 said:

Thatcher was a cunt. Some of you are too young to have lived through her reign.

she fucked up so many peoples life's.

"ding dong the witch is dead."

how many politicians have street party's celebrating their death.

I'm waiting for Blair ... there should be a big party in Iraq ..

crunchman

Thatcher went too far, but then if you look at the state of the country at the time, and the way the trade unions were at the time, someone did need to take them on.

The problem was that we needed a sensible Labour government, or at least a coalition government with the Liberals / SDP whatever they were at the time, at the 1987 election as two terms of Thatcher would have been enough.

crunchman

Just remembered this quote from George Bernard Shaw:

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

Fretwired

marantz1300 said:

Thatcher was a cunt. Some of you are too young to have lived through her reign.

I lived through the lot before. The disastrous Labour's redistribution of wealth policy which taxed high earners so much many simply left the country. Endless arguments over the EEC and a bankrupt UK - Dennis Healey had to go cap in hand to the IMF for a bailout (just like Greece). Healey also cancelled the the Hawker Siddeley P.1154 - the supersonic Harrier - which lost lots of skilled people their jobs.

Revising for exams through the winter of discontent with power cuts brought about by striking miners and power workers. Walking through piles of rubbish as the refuse workers were on strike. The UK was an utter shithole in the early 70s.

Labour were so unpopular the Tories could have put a strategically shaved monkey in a suit as their leader and people will have voted for them.

digitalscream

I always find it interesting, in these discussions, that the abusive language and dancing-on-graves only ever comes from one side.

Or, put another way...the grown-ups are trying to have a balanced, civil discussion here. If you can't manage that, kindly stay out of the thread.

Gulliver

I was/am a pretty big Paddy Ashdown fan.

MrBump

Gulliver said:

I was/am a pretty big Paddy Ashdown fan.

And Kennedy.  He was a decent bloke.  Lots of decent Liberals.

Garthy

marantz1300 said:

Thatcher was a cunt. Some of you are too young to have lived through her reign.

she fucked up so many peoples life's.

"ding dong the witch is dead."

how many politicians have street party's celebrating their death.

That's a barometer for the people throwing the party if we're going to measure personal qualities.  Street parties for political figures passing is utterly shameful. If she was a genocidal maniac or a ruthless dictator squashing the freedoms of the land and starving the populace like Hussein, Hitler, Mugabe, Taylor or Stalin then yes certainly, break out the bunting.

Fretwired

digitalscream said:

nick_s said:

Many hate me for it, but Margaret Thatcher.  We need a leader of her calibre now.  The title Iron Lady was earned.

You need strong leaders, who see things through come thick or thin.  Weakness is not a quality we need in a leader, and sadly, very few have it now.  It remains to be seen if Theresa May does.

I suspect May is trying to be like Thatcher; the problem is that she sees authoritarianism as Thatcher's defining characteristic, which it really wasn't.

Thatcher grew into her role though. She wasn't very assured to begin with and there was no social media so she was able to develop as a leader away from the prying eyes of the public. Politicians these days are forever in the spotlight - smartphones allow the man in the street to take a video and post it on a social media platform within minutes. Say the wrong thing and you find yourself trending on Twitter ... who'd want to be a politician these days.

Octafish

Fretwired said:

Labour were so unpopular the Tories could have put a strategically shaved monkey in a suit as their leader and people will have voted for them.

In 79 yes, however opinion polls at the time suggested Labour may well have won or tied the Tories had Callaghan not bottled it and called the election in 78 rather than 79 after the winter of discontent.

Thatcher also had better spin doctors/marketing such as the bullshit about her being some 'umble daughter of a struggling hard grafting shop keeper when in fact the reality was her dad owned the two main large grocers shops in Grantham employing multiple staff and was very influential on the local council, masons and Conservative party.

randella

digitalscream said:

I always find it interesting, in these discussions, that the abusive language and dancing-on-graves only ever comes from one side.

Or, put another way...the grown-ups are trying to have a balanced, civil discussion here. If you can't manage that, kindly stay out of the thread.

@digitalscream apologies, I get frustrated with the Labour Party beyond measure.  Will "soppy old goat Corbyn" suffice?

Fretwired

Octafish said:

Fretwired said:

Labour were so unpopular the Tories could have put a strategically shaved monkey in a suit as their leader and people will have voted for them.

Thatcher also had better spin doctors/marketing such as the bullshit about her being some 'umble daughter of a struggling hard grafting shop keeper when in fact the reality was her dad owned the two main large grocers shops in Grantham employing multiple staff and was very influential on the local council, masons and Conservative party.

He owned two small grocery shops and the family lived above one in a flat. He was a decent bloke and took in a Jewish refugee during WW2 and got others in the town to do the same. He was elected to the council as an independent - local government party politics didn't take over until much later.

Octafish

Fretwired said:

Octafish said:

Fretwired said:

Labour were so unpopular the Tories could have put a strategically shaved monkey in a suit as their leader and people will have voted for them.

Thatcher also had better spin doctors/marketing such as the bullshit about her being some 'umble daughter of a struggling hard grafting shop keeper when in fact the reality was her dad owned the two main large grocers shops in Grantham employing multiple staff and was very influential on the local council, masons and Conservative party.

He owned two small grocery shops and the family lived above one in a flat. He was a decent bloke and took in a Jewish refugee during WW2 and got others in the town to do the same. He was elected to the council as an independent - local government party politics didn't take over until much later.

I didn't suggest he was or wasn't a decent man, although I'm aware there's been plenty of rumours/allegations about him being a bit Saville.

Thatcher was born into far better conditions than a large amount of people at the time who survived on low paid work living in rented poor quality accomodation. The 'flat' she grew up in was pretty much the size of a house placed on top of the shop her dad owned. Her dad was also the Mayor at one point, a position likely not that open to many at the time.

The point is that an image was created of a poor little girl living in one room above a grocers shop that her dad ran all hours single handly when that was far from the reality. In fact Thatcher had no more impoverished upbringing than Harold Wilson and could have been classed lower middle class.

Fretwired

Octafish said:

Fretwired said:

Octafish said:

Fretwired said:

Labour were so unpopular the Tories could have put a strategically shaved monkey in a suit as their leader and people will have voted for them.

Thatcher also had better spin doctors/marketing such as the bullshit about her being some 'umble daughter of a struggling hard grafting shop keeper when in fact the reality was her dad owned the two main large grocers shops in Grantham employing multiple staff and was very influential on the local council, masons and Conservative party.

He owned two small grocery shops and the family lived above one in a flat. He was a decent bloke and took in a Jewish refugee during WW2 and got others in the town to do the same. He was elected to the council as an independent - local government party politics didn't take over until much later.

I didn't suggest he was or wasn't a decent man, although I'm aware there's been plenty of rumours/allegations about him being a bit Saville.

Thatcher was born into far better conditions than a large amount of people at the time who survived on low paid work living in rented poor quality accomodation. The 'flat' she grew up in was pretty much the size of a house placed on top of the shop her dad owned. Her dad was also the Mayor at one point, a position likely not that open to many at the time.

The point is that an image was created of a poor little girl living in one room above a grocers shop that her dad ran all hours single handly when that was far from the reality. In fact Thatcher had no more impoverished upbringing than Harold Wilson and could have been classed lower middle class.

@Octafish Sorry - wasn't having a go at you. Just adding to what you wrote. And yes, owning two shops in the 1930s would have made you wealthy which is why he could fund Margaret Thatcher through Oxford (no grants in those days). He was originally a Liberal I think and wasn't he a Methodist preacher?

I remember about the allegations .. didn't Private Eye run some stuff about him called the Rotten Borough ..

Octafish

Fretwired said:

Octafish said:

Fretwired said:

Octafish said:

Fretwired said:

Labour were so unpopular the Tories could have put a strategically shaved monkey in a suit as their leader and people will have voted for them.

Thatcher also had better spin doctors/marketing such as the bullshit about her being some 'umble daughter of a struggling hard grafting shop keeper when in fact the reality was her dad owned the two main large grocers shops in Grantham employing multiple staff and was very influential on the local council, masons and Conservative party.

He owned two small grocery shops and the family lived above one in a flat. He was a decent bloke and took in a Jewish refugee during WW2 and got others in the town to do the same. He was elected to the council as an independent - local government party politics didn't take over until much later.

I didn't suggest he was or wasn't a decent man, although I'm aware there's been plenty of rumours/allegations about him being a bit Saville.

Thatcher was born into far better conditions than a large amount of people at the time who survived on low paid work living in rented poor quality accomodation. The 'flat' she grew up in was pretty much the size of a house placed on top of the shop her dad owned. Her dad was also the Mayor at one point, a position likely not that open to many at the time.

The point is that an image was created of a poor little girl living in one room above a grocers shop that her dad ran all hours single handly when that was far from the reality. In fact Thatcher had no more impoverished upbringing than Harold Wilson and could have been classed lower middle class.

@Octafish Sorry - wasn't having a go at you. Just adding to what you wrote. And yes, owning two shops in the 1930s would have made you wealthy which is why he could fund Margaret Thatcher through Oxford (no grants in those days). He was originally a Liberal I think and wasn't he a Methodist preacher?

I remember about the allegations .. didn't Private Eye run some stuff about him called the Rotten Borough ..

No worries, didn't think you were having a go, just robust discussion .

Not sure about Private Eye, Punch did publish some allegations - something details here http://www.independent.co.uk/news/thatchers-dad-mayor-preacher-groper-1257249.html .

Fretwired

Octafish said:

No worries, didn't think you were having a go, just robust discussion .

Not sure about Private Eye, Punch did publish some allegations - something details here http://www.independent.co.uk/news/thatchers-dad-mayor-preacher-groper-1257249.html .

You're right - it was Punch ..